D&D General Let's Talk About How to "Fix" D&D

[billd91]

Should there? Some games are ABOUT exploring.

If the campaign's current situation is focused around some goal - like escaping Drow slavery and reaching the surface like the initial chapters of Out of the Abyss, then yes, you do need something. There should be a reasonable attraction to pull them, in character, away from that goal, otherwise the idea of exploring for the sake of exploring and gaining XPs is just a metagame distraction.

If your campaign's situations around built around exploration being the goal, then there may not need to be any particular thing (though certainly something worth finding even if it's more of an experience than something of direct value is certainly nice) to motivate the PCs.

 

[fearsomepirate]

If the only reason to explore is a metagame feature (more XPs), then I suspect there are bigger problems with the motivation to explore. There should be some thing there worthwhile for the PCs other than XP farming.

You're describing a railroad stop, not a sandbox.

 

[jmartkdr2]

You're describing a railroad stop, not a sandbox.

Is the sandbox empty? Or did you put toys in there for them to play with? Sand alone isn't much fun.

But I digress - the question was originally about how to give xp, and the answer is really "What things do you want the pc's to do?"

'Explore' isn't a good answer unless you can define exploration in terms of actual character actions. What are the pc's actually doing when they explore? How do you know exploration happened? What does it look like in the fiction? What mechanics are involved? From there, you can start to tease out "when are you finished exploring [an area or whatever]?" That's when you give xp.

The number is just [how often you want them to level up] / [how many xp awards you'll be giving out].

 

[fearsomepirate]

Is the sandbox empty? Or did you put toys in there for them to play with? Sand alone isn't much fun.

Neither is chasing rabbit trails when there aren't any rewards. When players get everything they need by staying on the railroad, and the only way to get more powerful is to stay on it, they stay on it.

 

[TwoSix]

Anyway, my point is that milestones are bad and designers that use them should feel bad.

Which is fine for a sandbox. But I think the majority of games nowadays are story path play.

 

[Reynard]

Which is fine for a sandbox. But I think the majority of games nowadays are story path play.

Sure but I was specifically lamenting it's use in Rime of the Frostmaiden, which is totally set up as a sandbox but then constrained with this weird forced story path.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Sure but I was specifically lamenting it's use in Rime of the Frostmaiden, which is totally set up as a sandbox but then constrained with this weird forced story path.

Maybe you're further along than my group is, but so far iMO the story path has been anything but forced...

 

[TheSword]

Sure but I was specifically lamenting it's use in Rime of the Frostmaiden, which is totally set up as a sandbox but then constrained with this weird forced story path.

I think your approach smacks a little of bad-wrong-fun. Telling designers they should feel bad about using milestone based levelling.

The style in Rime advances the timeline. If the players complete 3 (or more if the DM decides, it is only advice after all) the PCs stop gaining XP because the work they would be doing is no longer a challenge, no longer tests them, and therefore no longer provides development. You may think it’s cool for PCs to spend valuable play seasons defeating seriously under leveled challenges. My players would find that boring... as would I. Diminishing returns to zero for low CR challenges was quite common in 3e. I miss it. Your suggestion about players running around the Ten Towns completing the starter quests is the South Park episode when the boys kill sheep in Warcraft to level up.

The action in the ten towns also moves on, with some towns bitter that the Party didn’t help them in time. A DM could easily leverage this with rival adventuring groups, changing loyalties and displaying the consequences of PCs inactions. It’s a horror themed campaign. You aren’t supposed to help everyone with everything. That approach is naive.

There are more pressing challenges facing the Ten Towns, that a DM can present in such a way as to interest and excite the party. That doesn’t stop the party still helping the towns as side quests for favour, treasure or their own desires.

At the end of the day they have written for a typical groups progression. If you want the players be rewarded for exploring all the towns then slow down the milestones, or cut something later on, or extend the level range of the campaign. You can choose to provide whatever XP method suits you and your group. There is no need to criticize other people’s preferred methods to the extent you have.

 

[Reynard]

I think your approach smacks a little of bad-wrong-fun. Telling designers they should feel bad about using milestone based levelling.

The style in Rime advances the timeline. If the players complete 3 (or more if the DM decides, it is only advice after all) the PCs stop gaining XP because the work they would be doing is no longer a challenge, no longer tests them, and therefore no longer provides development. You may think it’s cool for PCs to spend valuable play seasons defeating seriously under leveled challenges. My players would find that boring... as would I. Diminishing returns to zero for low CR challenges was quite common in 3e. I miss it. Your suggestion about players running around the Ten Towns completing the starter quests is the South Park episode when the boys kill sheep in Warcraft to level up.

The action in the ten towns also moves on, with some towns bitter that the Party didn’t help them in time. A DM could easily leverage this with rival adventuring groups, changing loyalties and displaying the consequences of PCs inactions. It’s a horror themed campaign. You aren’t supposed to help everyone with everything. That approach is naive.

There are more pressing challenges facing the Ten Towns, that a DM can present in such a way as to interest and excite the party. That doesn’t stop the party still helping the towns as side quests for favour, treasure or their own desires.

At the end of the day they have written for a typical groups progression. If you want the players be rewarded for exploring all the towns then slow down the milestones, or cut something later on, or extend the level range of the campaign. You can choose to provide whatever XP method suits you and your group. There is no need to criticize other people’s preferred methods to the extent you have.

I thought it was pretty clear that I was being snarky, but if you feel attacked I apologize.

However, we are under no obligation to say a published product is something we like when we don't, and we think they are design failures rather than just preference differences. I would know: I worked on Gamma World d20.

XP serves an actual purpose in play and I think it is a mistake for WotC to abandon its central role in supporting player agency. I personally think milestone leveling is a form of railroading and has its place in linear adventure paths but not in sandboxes -- and that's not me badwrongfunning you, that's me expressing my opinion.

 

[Lanefan]

If the campaign's current situation is focused around some goal - like escaping Drow slavery and reaching the surface like the initial chapters of Out of the Abyss, then yes, you do need something. There should be a reasonable attraction to pull them, in character, away from that goal, otherwise the idea of exploring for the sake of exploring and gaining XPs is just a metagame distraction.

You mean much like fighting for the sake of fighting and gaining xp is a metagame distraction now?

Where the xp are, the players will more or less follow. If the xp are mostly in combat, they'll look for reasons to fight whether the story needs them to or not. If the xp are mostly in exploring, they'll look for reasons to explore whether the story needs them to or not. If the xp are in treasure, they'll go to immense lengths to strip everything out of the place, get it to town, and sell it. If the xp are mostly (or only) in story completion or milestones, the 9:45 to Waterloo is leaving now from platform 8 and the players have already boarded the train.