D&D 5E 5e and the Cheesecake Factory: Explaining Good Enough

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
The reason Cheesecake Factory doesn’t work as an analogy for D&D is a flaw with the idea that CF is domineeringly popular restaurant... it isn’t.

It may be popular but it still only relates to a small slice of the restaurant business. If you add up the restaurant meals in the US and look at the proportion of covers a week in CF it will be a tiny sliver of a slice. A percent of a percent. Even Macdonald’s has a small slice restaurants and they’re by far the biggest eatery chain I can think of.

Most covers are served in independents, or small chains ... millions of them... You’ve just heard of CF because there are lots of them. It’s a successful brand sure, but its still only a small part of what people eat out. It’s success isn't particularly earth shaking, and thus the reason for that success doesn’t have to be earth shaking either.

Now compare this to the fact that the Orr group industry report shows more than half of people are playing D&D 5e on that platform. That’s not even including other editions of the brand. Just 5e. More than every other rpg system combined. You can’t explain that kind of success with a least-worst argument.
That' a good point, it also depends on where you live in the US. In some regions there is a cultural resistance towards eating anything new/experimental/unknown over more of the norm to a rather serious degree compared to other regions more known for having a plethora of dining options. I could visit my sister in TN & there is wafflehouse crackerbarrel olive garden & all the usual fast food/takeout places plus maybe a chain steakhouse or two within a 30-40min drive... but here in south east florida I have so many great nonchain dining options within 10-20 min that it takes a rare restaurant or annoying errand to justify driving 30-40 min for a meal even with the situation of friends the OP noted... The only Cheesecake factories I can think of are in "upscale" shopping malls like one in boca a good 40 min away where they are minutes walk or drive from capital grille, legal seafood, one or more applebees/rubytusedays/etc, multiple places likely with "alehouse" in the name, & a list as long as my arm of other great options just pulling from when I worked down the street years ago.

Extending the analogy to bring in the warts left out by the OP 5e is like cheesecake factory here in south florida and because 5e also cuts out so much to support Derek & his full bar specifically anyone who wants stuff cleared out to make room for drunken stumbling is told to build their own Cheesecake factory
 

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jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
Coca Cola is pretty good analysis - in the early 40’s for percentage market share. However only if you look at soft drinks. The reality is Coca Cola only makes up a tiny tiny slice of what people drink.
You could say Coca-Cola is to drinks in general as D&D is to games in general, and Coca-Cola is to soft drinks as D&D is to tabletop RPGs.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Yea, that wasn't my intent. I was thinking about it more as my teenage sons are still my "dependents", but they're certainly not wholly dependent on me anymore. D&D 5e's success is dependent on factors that are unrelated to its design; that doesn't mean its design isn't a strong factor in its overall popularity.
I figured so that's why I called out my post as a nitpick. It's one of those cases where you can read something two ways depending on how you approach it.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I figured so that's why I called out my post as a nitpick. It's one of those cases where you can read something two ways depending on how you approach it.
Absolutely. I didn't think of it when I wrote it, but I saw it as soon as you mentioned it. We're good. :)
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Sounds like something a movie critic would say. A lot of movies get panned by critics, yet at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is does the audience enjoy the movie. Sometimes a movie will have a big opening weekend because of expectations but then drops off quickly. But a movie that opens well and keeps going strong? People judge it as a good movie.

Same with games. With 5E, unlike previous editions that sold well at first, there wasn't any initial popularity followed by quick decline. Instead we have year-in-year-out growth. To me, that means people judge it as a good game.

Maybe you like the art-house version of TTRPGs. That's fine. But year in year out growth with no other TTRPG nipping at their heels? You don't get that with a bad game. People continue to buy the game because they have fun playing. I can't think of a better definition of good than that.
Yes, year-after-year growth is a good indication of a reasonable good game. Popularity is not. I'm glad we can agree on this.

As for people doing something that's less good that an alternative -- this happens all the time. It's a poor argument that people continue to do a thing means that thing is good. This is demonstrated throughout history. Does this mean D&D isn't good? Of course not, this argument in converse is poor as well. This is just pointing out that this argument -- that people continue to do a thing means that thing is good -- is a bad argument.

D&D is clearly a good game. It does what it aims to, and people enjoy it. However, it's a mistake to think that this is the reason for it's popularity -- it's a contributing factor, sure, but this is neither a major reason (there are plenty of games as good as D&D) nor is it axiomatic (things that are popular aren't necessarily good -- I mean, come on, does no one remember high school?). Extrapolating the quality of D&D from it's popularity is bad logic, and a bad argument. Looking at what D&D does well and other factors (timing, inertia, legacy, etc) to explain its popularity is the right direction.

I'm currently running 5e. I ran 4e. I ran 3.xe. I ran 2e. I played 1e. I clearly don't have any issues whatsoever with D&D as a game, and I'm aware of enough other games (that I like to love) that I'm not continuing to play D&D because of personal inertia. I do play D&D in part because of group inertia -- my group has a significant investment in D&D and peripheral products and we'd like to see a return on that investment. That D&D provides that return is, in part, why we keep playing (ie, not a sunk cost argument, D&D provides actual return on investment). That and we like it well enough. It's also easy to find those peripherals for -- roll20 has good support for 5e (we're virtual due to consistent exposure risk for a number of my players and myself -- we have jobs that put us at risk), there's cool dice and minis, and lots of adventure ideas not to mention full APs (if that's your thing). So, the economy around 5e supports playing it -- it has built up a strong support network with tools, toys, and advice (youtube, streaming, here). Honestly, I like 5e for the combat -- it scratches my wargame itch. The exploration and social pillars I find to be far better supported in other games (which is why I play those games when I want that focus). This is fine, and you should play games because they offer something. Someone else may have a different attraction.

However, I find threads like this to be extremely fraught for two main reasons -- 1) most posting do not have a depth of played games that stretches far past D&D. Many that claim different games played are still within the scope of D&D-like. Even CoC is largely D&Dish, in that the way it structures roles in the game and establishes play is familiar to someone that's played D&D -- the GM is in charge of everything but the characters (and that's not strong). The game runs by the GM establishing the fiction. This is a great way to play, by the way, I'm not knocking it (and it would be hypocritical to do so, considering I'm running a 5e AP right now). But, it severely limits the understanding that there are actually very different ways RPGs can work, and that those do things D&D just flat out cannot do. In turn, those games can't do things D&D can do. But, this lack of breadth in experience lends to a certain myopic point of view on just how flexible D&D can be -- which is that so long as it's trying to play the same way as D&D, you can file off the setting and swap a few things out and pretend you're actually playing a different game.

The second thing is that people are strangely extremely personally invested in D&D such that any suggestion that the game doesn't do something well, or isn't as flexible as claimed, or that another game might do something better is immediately met with defensive posting, usually assuming insults. It makes it very hard to say, "D&D is a good game, but if you want to do X in your game, you should at least look at how Game Y does it, because it does it very well and D&D has nothing for that." The corollary to this is that people will often say D&D can do those things to, but ignore the fact that you're either dropping D&D and falling into ad hoc GM fiat territory or you're building entire new sub-sections of rules. Or, which is actually most common, it's assumed that this is so because you can do either of the above, but no effort is made to actually examine the level of effort or effect for doing so. As someone that used to do the Fantasy Heartbreaker level of houserules to achieve things, this rings entirely hollow for me these days, especially now that I actually have a better grasp on the breadth of games out there and how they achieve things. You cannot, for instance, replicate the majority of play in BitD in a D&D game -- you'd have to rewrite so much of D&D to do so that you'd essentially just recreate BitD.
 

TheSword

Legend
To be fair, you tend to jump in the line of fire if someone even so much as sneezes in D&D's general direction. 😜
As I said, I’m ambivalent about a lot of D&D editions and history. I also am not blind to D&D’s flaws. I find solutions. Just like Level Up is a type of solution to some of 5e’s flaws. No doubt it will create a few of its own.

I read a lot of snobbery in some threads, and lot of people share their opinions on what is possible as if they are facts.

There are always people wanting to shoot down something successful. Some more than others. Play the game you want to play. Let’s not tell people they’re playing wrong.
 
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Oofta

Legend
I think all of the conflicting ideas on what should be done to improve 5E are an indicator that ... wait for it ... there is no such thing as a perfect game. Problem is, one person's improvement is another's degradation. There are absolutely things I think D&D, and specifically 5E, could do better.

But are those things going to make it better for the general public? 🤷‍♂️
Yes, year-after-year growth is a good indication of a reasonable good game. Popularity is not. I'm glad we can agree on this.

As for people doing something that's less good that an alternative -- this happens all the time. It's a poor argument that people continue to do a thing means that thing is good. This is demonstrated throughout history. Does this mean D&D isn't good? Of course not, this argument in converse is poor as well. This is just pointing out that this argument -- that people continue to do a thing means that thing is good -- is a bad argument.

D&D is clearly a good game. It does what it aims to, and people enjoy it. However, it's a mistake to think that this is the reason for it's popularity -- it's a contributing factor, sure, but this is neither a major reason (there are plenty of games as good as D&D) nor is it axiomatic (things that are popular aren't necessarily good -- I mean, come on, does no one remember high school?). Extrapolating the quality of D&D from it's popularity is bad logic, and a bad argument. Looking at what D&D does well and other factors (timing, inertia, legacy, etc) to explain its popularity is the right direction.

I'm currently running 5e. I ran 4e. I ran 3.xe. I ran 2e. I played 1e. I clearly don't have any issues whatsoever with D&D as a game, and I'm aware of enough other games (that I like to love) that I'm not continuing to play D&D because of personal inertia. I do play D&D in part because of group inertia -- my group has a significant investment in D&D and peripheral products and we'd like to see a return on that investment. That D&D provides that return is, in part, why we keep playing (ie, not a sunk cost argument, D&D provides actual return on investment). That and we like it well enough. It's also easy to find those peripherals for -- roll20 has good support for 5e (we're virtual due to consistent exposure risk for a number of my players and myself -- we have jobs that put us at risk), there's cool dice and minis, and lots of adventure ideas not to mention full APs (if that's your thing). So, the economy around 5e supports playing it -- it has built up a strong support network with tools, toys, and advice (youtube, streaming, here). Honestly, I like 5e for the combat -- it scratches my wargame itch. The exploration and social pillars I find to be far better supported in other games (which is why I play those games when I want that focus). This is fine, and you should play games because they offer something. Someone else may have a different attraction.

However, I find threads like this to be extremely fraught for two main reasons -- 1) most posting do not have a depth of played games that stretches far past D&D. Many that claim different games played are still within the scope of D&D-like. Even CoC is largely D&Dish, in that the way it structures roles in the game and establishes play is familiar to someone that's played D&D -- the GM is in charge of everything but the characters (and that's not strong). The game runs by the GM establishing the fiction. This is a great way to play, by the way, I'm not knocking it (and it would be hypocritical to do so, considering I'm running a 5e AP right now). But, it severely limits the understanding that there are actually very different ways RPGs can work, and that those do things D&D just flat out cannot do. In turn, those games can't do things D&D can do. But, this lack of breadth in experience lends to a certain myopic point of view on just how flexible D&D can be -- which is that so long as it's trying to play the same way as D&D, you can file off the setting and swap a few things out and pretend you're actually playing a different game.

The second thing is that people are strangely extremely personally invested in D&D such that any suggestion that the game doesn't do something well, or isn't as flexible as claimed, or that another game might do something better is immediately met with defensive posting, usually assuming insults. It makes it very hard to say, "D&D is a good game, but if you want to do X in your game, you should at least look at how Game Y does it, because it does it very well and D&D has nothing for that." The corollary to this is that people will often say D&D can do those things to, but ignore the fact that you're either dropping D&D and falling into ad hoc GM fiat territory or you're building entire new sub-sections of rules. Or, which is actually most common, it's assumed that this is so because you can do either of the above, but no effort is made to actually examine the level of effort or effect for doing so. As someone that used to do the Fantasy Heartbreaker level of houserules to achieve things, this rings entirely hollow for me these days, especially now that I actually have a better grasp on the breadth of games out there and how they achieve things. You cannot, for instance, replicate the majority of play in BitD in a D&D game -- you'd have to rewrite so much of D&D to do so that you'd essentially just recreate BitD.

The thing is that while there are things I would personally change in D&D to make it "better", that definition of what is better will always be subjective. Take a look at all the contradicting ideas that come up when there's a thread on how to improve the game.

Just because people (like me) are fans of 5E and enjoy it, I don't think it means people think it's perfect. On the other hand, if you complain that D&D doesn't do what some apocalypse world variant does then maybe you should be playing that instead of D&D.

I don't see a problem with acknowledging that no game will work for everyone. I also don't have a problem saying that 5E is the best version of D&D I've played. I think it works pretty well out of the box, and I have not problem saying that for me and the people I actually play with some of the things people complain about are features, not bugs.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I read a lot of snobbery in some threads, and lot of people share their opinions on what is possible as if they are facts.
Including you for that matter. I think it would be an egregious mistake to equate criticism of a game with snobbery simply because it's critical of D&D 5e. There are others in those "some threads" that genuinely like and play 5e with some regularity, myself included and at least one poster you may be alluding to here.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
As for people doing something that's less good that an alternative -- this happens all the time. It's a poor argument that people continue to do a thing means that thing is good. This is demonstrated throughout history. Does this mean D&D isn't good? Of course not, this argument in converse is poor as well. This is just pointing out that this argument -- that people continue to do a thing means that thing is good -- is a bad argument.

D&D is clearly a good game. It does what it aims to, and people enjoy it. However, it's a mistake to think that this is the reason for it's popularity -- it's a contributing factor, sure, but this is neither a major reason (there are plenty of games as good as D&D) nor is it axiomatic (things that are popular aren't necessarily good -- I mean, come on, does no one remember high school?). Extrapolating the quality of D&D from it's popularity is bad logic, and a bad argument. Looking at what D&D does well and other factors (timing, inertia, legacy, etc) to explain its popularity is the right direction.
I'm reading this as you saying that "popular, therefore good" and "popular, therefore bad" are (more or less) the same fallacy. I 100% agree with this.
I'm currently running 5e. I ran 4e. I ran 3.xe. I ran 2e. I played 1e. I clearly don't have any issues whatsoever with D&D as a game, and I'm aware of enough other games (that I like to love) that I'm not continuing to play D&D because of personal inertia. I do play D&D in part because of group inertia -- my group has a significant investment in D&D and peripheral products and we'd like to see a return on that investment. That D&D provides that return is, in part, why we keep playing (ie, not a sunk cost argument, D&D provides actual return on investment). That and we like it well enough. It's also easy to find those peripherals for -- roll20 has good support for 5e (we're virtual due to consistent exposure risk for a number of my players and myself -- we have jobs that put us at risk), there's cool dice and minis, and lots of adventure ideas not to mention full APs (if that's your thing). So, the economy around 5e supports playing it -- it has built up a strong support network with tools, toys, and advice (youtube, streaming, here). Honestly, I like 5e for the combat -- it scratches my wargame itch. The exploration and social pillars I find to be far better supported in other games (which is why I play those games when I want that focus). This is fine, and you should play games because they offer something. Someone else may have a different attraction.

However, I find threads like this to be extremely fraught for two main reasons -- 1) most posting do not have a depth of played games that stretches far past D&D. Many that claim different games played are still within the scope of D&D-like. Even CoC is largely D&Dish, in that the way it structures roles in the game and establishes play is familiar to someone that's played D&D -- the GM is in charge of everything but the characters (and that's not strong). The game runs by the GM establishing the fiction. This is a great way to play, by the way, I'm not knocking it (and it would be hypocritical to do so, considering I'm running a 5e AP right now). But, it severely limits the understanding that there are actually very different ways RPGs can work, and that those do things D&D just flat out cannot do. In turn, those games can't do things D&D can do. But, this lack of breadth in experience lends to a certain myopic point of view on just how flexible D&D can be -- which is that so long as it's trying to play the same way as D&D, you can file off the setting and swap a few things out and pretend you're actually playing a different game.

The second thing is that people are strangely extremely personally invested in D&D such that any suggestion that the game doesn't do something well, or isn't as flexible as claimed, or that another game might do something better is immediately met with defensive posting, usually assuming insults. It makes it very hard to say, "D&D is a good game, but if you want to do X in your game, you should at least look at how Game Y does it, because it does it very well and D&D has nothing for that." The corollary to this is that people will often say D&D can do those things to, but ignore the fact that you're either dropping D&D and falling into ad hoc GM fiat territory or you're building entire new sub-sections of rules. Or, which is actually most common, it's assumed that this is so because you can do either of the above, but no effort is made to actually examine the level of effort or effect for doing so. As someone that used to do the Fantasy Heartbreaker level of houserules to achieve things, this rings entirely hollow for me these days, especially now that I actually have a better grasp on the breadth of games out there and how they achieve things. You cannot, for instance, replicate the majority of play in BitD in a D&D game -- you'd have to rewrite so much of D&D to do so that you'd essentially just recreate BitD.
I've put some thought into why these threads can be so ... contentious. You like (and run and play) 5E, so if you say something about its weaknesses, it's coming from something of a positive place. If you say that you've found that Blades in the Dark does something better than 5E, there's little reason to think it's coming from ... animus, for lack of a better term. If someone who admittedly doesn't like or play 5E says something similar, it's a little harder to take at face value--would you take anything I said about Blades in the Dark at face value?--even if they make a sincere effort not to be negative about the game they do not enjoy.
 

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