D&D 5E "Combat exhaustion" at 0 hp?

[toucanbuzz]

I know the topic of replacing Death Saves has been covered, but I wanted to take a version I've seen on other threads and weave it into my own (vitality at 0hp). Not looking for debate on whether one should use an alternative to Death Saves, but any abuses or loopholes you could see occurring. My players currently like the idea of being relevant, albeit reduced in ability and hovering at death's door, at 0hp.

Several DMs use some version of a homebrew rule, in lieu of Death Saves at 0 hit points, of: gain 1 level of exhaustion. The purpose is largely to avoid "whack-a-mole." The rule has been criticized as easily leading to a death spiral, especially for front-line characters, though it is a simplistic rule to implement. What if the exhaustion gained this way were easier to shed? Much credit to folks in this thread and @6ENow!

Proposed System:

1. At 0 hit points, PC gains 1 level of "combat exhaustion" and any concentration effects end. Combat exhaustion is the same as normal exhaustion and stacks with it, but is easier to remove by:
   • 1 per short rest or lesser restoration
   • All by a long rest, greater restoration, or potion of vitality.
2. The PC makes a Concentration saving throw to gain the "staggered" condition and stay conscious. Failure means the character gains the "unconscious" condition. Once a player gains at least 1 hit point, they lose these conditions. A player can voluntarily "fail" the save (perhaps to avoid looking like a threat on the battlefield).
   • If the save is failed by 5 or more, the PC gains a "lingering injury" per the DMG p272.
3. A "staggered" PC loses reactions, cannot move unless they use the Dash action, and can only take a single Action or Bonus action on their turn. Each time the PC takes damage while staggered, they must make another Concentration saving throw as above.
   • Option A: any subsequent damage to a staggered or unconscious PC is taken from their Vitality points. At 0 Vitality, the PC is dead, unless the enemy opts to knock them out with an otherwise fatal melee attack, leaving the PC with 1 vitality and the unconscious condition.
     • Vitality = starting HP, only changing if the CON modifier changes.
     • Vitality heals at the rate of 1 per Long Rest. It can be magically healed if the character is already at full hit points, and then at the rate of 1 for every 10 points of healing. Regeneration is the exception, always heals at least 1 per tic.
   • OR, thinking Option B: any subsequent hits imposes 1 combat exhaustion; a critical hit imposes 2. The enemy can opt to knock them out with an otherwise fatal melee attack (one that would give them 6 exhaustion levels), leaving the PC with 5 levels of normal exhaustion (all combat exhaustion is now converted to normal exhaustion).

Option A is our current system and can make for more brutal games akin to 3rd edition and AD&D. One direct hit by a giant's club can, and should end you, whether you're 1st or 20th level. But, you might survive a swipe of a sword. The 20th level character has gotten better at avoiding these types of fatal hits, which is why they have more "hit points." Getting Vitality back can take much time, reflecting the reality of taking "real damage."

Option B is slightly more forgiving because no matter what the damage is, whether it be a 1 point needle prick from a faerie or a 50 point dragon claw, you effectively "avoid" the fatal blow and instead creep closer through the Exhaustion mechanic and become much more useless in combat. However, I got away from Death Saves for this exact reason that at 0 hp, damage becomes absurdly irrelevant. A 200 damage "hit" is treated just the same as a 1 damage "hit" and that doesn't feel right (for me...stress, for me and my games).

 

[Flamestrike]

Don't do it is my advice.

Imposing exhaustion on PCs who drop to 0HP encourages the 5MWD. It effectively mandates it.

It also has minimal impact on spellcasters, while smashing Martials (by penalizing ability checks and attack rolls, which spellcasters tend to avoid).

All you'll see as an end result is nova strikes and class imbalance as the PCs look to long rest up after every single encounter.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I've been running D&D 5e with exhaustion at 0hp in my WoG/ToEE campaign for years, and ditching a dungeon after 5 minutes is definitely not a good idea. It works fine. Players heal earlier rather than later and play more defensively overall. It's not until your 3rd level of exhaustion that it becomes a serious problem. I like this Combat Exhaustion idea, though, it's a little more forgiving.

The Massive Damage optional rules in the DMG are also an option, though having them go away with magical healing makes them pointless.

 

[guachi]

I have +1 exhaustion level at zero HP and it's never led to a 5MWD. It's led to players using their HD sooner rather than later. The most levels of exhaustion I've ever had was probably three levels, though it may have only been two on several occasions.

What it did do was lead to players roleplaying their conditions, and that was fun. It also led to a greater sense of accomplishment. Like the players actually suffered a bit for their success.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I've never seen Exhaustion death happen, ever. Someone did actually get to level 5 once, but at that point, you are physically incapable of adventuring any more. His buddies carried him home.

 

[Blue]

1. A role in the party, tank/front line melee, is more likely to get attacked because they intentionally put themselves between foes and the other party members. Because combat can be swingy, with a couple of unfortunate crits against you or a failed saves they will go down. Here we have someone more likely to be penalized for playing al altruistic role where they defend others. That is against the style of play I want to engender.

2. Is it their fault for going down, a healer's fault for not proactively healing them, a caster's fault for not buffing them or defbuffing/action denial on an enemy? D&D is a team game, yet the penalty is getting assigned most often to certain roles. This penalizes the wrong character often, or puts a team penalty on only one.

3. The first level of exhaustion gives disadvantage on all ability checks. While there are some ability checks in combat, ability checks are by far the predominant way to mechanically interact with the other pillars of play besides combat. So the penalty for getting dropped in combat is to suck mechanically at everything that is not combat. So the penalty is completely inappropriate for what happened.

So in the end you have penalizing the wrong character, penalizing them for playing with a play style where they enhance the team, and the penalty is of the wrong type for combat.

You need to fix all three to even have a rule that isn't wildly bad. For example, making a new track besides exhaustion that has combat penalties, or reworking the penalties from exhausion so the first level or two primarily affects combat would resolve the third. People just pick exhaustion because it exists.

Once all three of these have been fixed, then you have a rule you can compare to the current rule and see if it is better.

 

[Flamestrike]

1. A role in the party, tank/front line melee, is more likely to get attacked because they intentionally put themselves between foes and the other party members. Because combat can be swingy, with a couple of unfortunate crits against you or a failed saves they will go down. Here we have someone more likely to be penalized for playing al altruistic role where they defend others. That is against the style of play I want to engender.

2. Is it their fault for going down, a healer's fault for not proactively healing them, a caster's fault for not buffing them or defbuffing/action denial on an enemy? D&D is a team game, yet the penalty is getting assigned most often to certain roles. This penalizes the wrong character often, or puts a team penalty on only one.

3. The first level of exhaustion gives disadvantage on all ability checks. While there are some ability checks in combat, ability checks are by far the predominant way to mechanically interact with the other pillars of play besides combat. So the penalty for getting dropped in combat is to suck mechanically at everything that is not combat. So the penalty is completely inappropriate for what happened.

So in the end you have penalizing the wrong character, penalizing them for playing with a play style where they enhance the team, and the penalty is of the wrong type for combat.

You need to fix all three to even have a rule that isn't wildly bad. For example, making a new track besides exhaustion that has combat penalties, or reworking the penalties from exhausion so the first level or two primarily affects combat would resolve the third. People just pick exhaustion because it exists.

Once all three of these have been fixed, then you have a rule you can compare to the current rule and see if it is better.

And after ability checks comes attack rolls.

So you penalise the fighter... for fighting.

And the Rogue gets.. no more sneak attack.

How many Wizards give a naughty word about disadvantage on attack rolls or ability checks? Or really any of the exhaustion effects? They're still casting just fine with 5 levels as they were with none.

Its just a bad idea for mine and it disincentives rhe exact kind of play I want to encourage, while punishing some classes overly harshly for doing nothing else than their job.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@toucanbuzz

Thanks for the props! I don't have time to review your post but I will make time tomorrow. At a quick glance, it does seem (nearly) identical to systems I've used in the past so I am very hopeful you can nail down a variant you like. Until later!

EDIT: Ignore the doubters man, these types of systems work great IMO and IME.

 

[werecorpse]

The method I use to discourage blasé response to dropping to 0 behind having monsters gnaw on the unconscious character is
1. every failed death save gives a chance of getting a lingering injury; but
2. you don’t roll for the lingering injury chance until you take a long rest.

The lingering injuries are things like lose 10’ of movement, disadvantage on strength ability checks, max HP reduced etc. They aren’t totally debilitating but are annoying. They can add up and take weeks of rest (or the regenerate spell - so they can drop out of the game at 13+ level) to recover from.

The fiction is that during the adventuring day your Adrenalin keeps you going but when you wake the next morning you are sore and sorry.

The in game affect is that players work to avoid a risk of a failed death save and the impact of the same isn’t a death spiral - plus they know if they’ve built up a few they don’t want to long rest unless they have to because they may get an Injury so they discourage the 5mwd.

 

[Horwath]

If you make short rest 4E style, as in 5 minutes long. This could work.