D&D 5E Cloak of Elvenkind - Advantage to Stealth AND -5 to passive perception?

[Flamestrike]

N doesn't lose hidden until he is seen clearly, or makes an alerting noise.

He's standing in light rain, with C staring straight at him, standing 30' away.

He can be seen clearly. Seriously go outside and try it for yourself.

You agree N cant hide in light rain under direct observation, so how on earth is N remaining hidden in light rain under direct observation?

A perception check is a reasonable way to arbitrate such a situation (even if the DC is Impossible, no roll required).

You can make whatever rulings you want. But the rules state that as soon as N leaves his hiding spot and enters somewhere he cannot hide, unless C is distracted (DMs call), C spots N immediately.

 

[Iry]

He's standing in light rain, with C staring straight at him, standing 30' away.
He can be seen clearly.
You agree N cant hide in light rain under direct observation, so how on earth is N remaining hidden in light rain under direct observation?

The success of direct observation has to be determined. This is usually done with passive perception, but can be active searching if C is taking that action every turn. This can be further modified by circumstances that might grant advantage or disadvantage (+/-5 to passives).

I can stare as hard as I want, and still miss things.

 

[Flamestrike]

The success of direct observation has to be determined.

No it doesnt.

Page 177 PHB:

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.

Unless the creature is distracted (DMs call) when you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it sees you.

In this case the creature is NOT distracted. It is alert and staring straight at the lone tree (and the immediate surrounds of the tree) from a distance of 30' away.

There is no 'Perception check'. C automatically notices N as soon as N walks out from behind the tree and starts approaching C.

 

[Blue Orange]

Strictly for comic relief, here's the classic '90s song, back from before D&D was cool:

 

[Iry]

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.

Unless the creature is distracted (DMs call) when you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it sees you.

In this case the creature is NOT distracted. It is alert and staring straight at the lone tree (and the immediate surrounds of the tree) from a distance of 30' away.

There is no 'Perception check'. C automatically notices N as soon as N walks out from behind the tree and starts approaching C.

You can't see clearly in Light Obscurement (light rain), it imposes disadvantage on Perception (Wisdom) checks. So when N moves away from the tree and through light rain, N has not come out of hiding. N is in far more dangerous circumstances and is far more likely to be discovered, but that is part of the Perception (Wisdom) check you are not allowing.

 

[Hriston]

You can't see clearly in Light Obscurement (light rain), it imposes disadvantage on Perception (Wisdom) checks. So when N moves away from the tree and through light rain, N has not come out of hiding. N is in far more dangerous circumstances and is far more likely to be discovered, but that is part of the Perception (Wisdom) check you are not allowing.

First, it's heavy rain that creates a lightly obscured area, just to get the fiction straight in this example. That heavy rain only imposes disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. I think this is often overlooked for some reason, and I see a lot of statements to the effect that it imposes disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks generally. This is not true.

Secondly, if N was hiding behind a tree (because of the obstruction to vision afforded by the tree) and then comes out from behind that tree, then N (assuming N is not a wood elf) is most certainly coming out of hiding because N has no ability to hide when only lightly obscured by natural phenomena such as rain.

 

[Iry]

Secondly, if N was hiding behind a tree (because of the obstruction to vision afforded by the tree) and then comes out from behind that tree, then N (assuming N is not a wood elf) is most certainly coming out of hiding because N has no ability to hide when only lightly obscured by natural phenomena such as rain.

The condition to end hiding is being clearly seen. If N comes out from behind the tree and is still in a situation where he is not clearly seen, then he doesn't stop hiding until he is clearly seen. This is usually accomplished by being noticed by active searching, running into someone with a higher passive perception score than your stealth check, or moving into an area with no cover or concealment. DM arbitration is really important in this phase, because it would normally influence the DM applying advantage/disadvantage or determining that the actions of N would make it impossible for him to continue hiding (like the previously mentioned cartwheels).

However, Flamestrike is not allowing DM arbitration.
This prevents either of us from making a perception check to determine if N is clearly seen or not.

 

[Hriston]

The condition to end hiding is being clearly seen. If N comes out from behind the tree and is still in a situation where he is not clearly seen, then he doesn't stop hiding until he is clearly seen. This is usually accomplished by being noticed by active searching, running into someone with a higher passive perception score than your stealth check, or moving into an area with no cover or concealment. DM arbitration is really important in this phase, because it would normally influence the DM applying advantage/disadvantage or determining that the actions of N would make it impossible for him to continue hiding (like the previously mentioned cartwheels).

However, Flamestrike is not allowing DM arbitration.
This prevents either of us from making a perception check to determine if N is clearly seen or not.

The condition to not be able to hide like at all in the first place is being clearly seen. If you are ruling that N can't be clearly seen due to heavy rain, then why couldn't N hide there in the first place? Why did N have to go behind a tree to hide?

Edit to add: I think I asked this up-thread but didn't get an answer. Where in the rules are you getting the idea that more is needed to begin hiding than to not be seen clearly?

 

[Iry]

The condition to not be able to hide like at all in the first place is being clearly seen. If you are ruling that N can't be clearly seen due to heavy rain, then why couldn't N hide there in the first place? Why did N have to go behind a tree to hide?

Edit to add: I think I asked this up-thread but didn't get an answer. Where in the rules are you getting the idea that more is needed to begin hiding than to not be seen clearly?

Mostly the existence of Mask of the Wild, Lightfoot, Skulker, etc. They outline exceptions that create negative space for what is default.

 

[Flamestrike]

You can't see clearly in Light Obscurement (light rain), it imposes disadvantage on Perception (Wisdom) checks.

Not relevant because N reveals himself as soon as he comes out of hiding into a place he cannot hide (light obscurement).

If N was a Wood Elf, it would be a different story. He would not reveal himself when he left his hiding spot behind the tree and approached C in the light rain due to Mask of the Wild. He could walk straight up to C and C does not get a Perception check unless he takes the Search action to locate N.

So when N moves away from the tree and through light rain, N has not come out of hiding.

Yes he has come out of hiding. He cant hide in light obscurement any more than he can hide in bright sunlight.

The rule is, as soon as you leave a hiding spot (i.e. enter a place you cannot hide) you automatically reveal yourself UNLESS the creature you're hiding from is 'distracted'.

C is NOT distracted. He is closely observing the area.

N is in far more dangerous circumstances.

No, the rules are clear.

As soon as N leaves his hiding spot, and enters an area he cannot hide, he is automatically noticed by C unless the DM rules that C is 'distracted' (i.e. looking the other way).

Your interpretation leads to the absurd scenario where 20 creatures hidden in a distant room, could walk down a 30' long and 10' wide hallway which is under direct observation (by a creature with darkvision and relying on that vision to see in the darkness) standing at the end of that hallway, and walk straight past that creature.