D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

[jgsugden]

I've played monks in every edition and enjoyed them. My current most often played PC is a monk and the DM considers it overpowered.

It may be the most flavorful base class, it is the only class that can try to stun an opponent 4 times in one round.

No fixes are needed.

That being said, if I were going to give it a fix it woud be giving it a "greater ASI" at 4th level, giving you the option a feat and an ASI, or 2 ASI (but with a restriction that no ability could be raised by more than +2 total between these "two ASI"). While it is not necessary to make this adjustment, the MAD nature of the monk places it on the lower side of the acceptable power threshold.

 

[Oofta]

Beauty, like class structure and effectiveness, in the eye of the beholder. I've played monks and had fun (even though I have yet to get one to higher levels for various reasons), I have a player with a monk in my current campaign and he seems to be enjoying it.

I think they work just fine. D&D is and always has taken ideas from everywhere and thrown them into a blender. Monks aren't any different. Comparisons of effectiveness in combat don't really mean a whole lot. Stunning strike can turn the tide of battle, being able to ping-pong across the battle field is fun.

Could they be stronger? Sure. But it's also going to depend on campaign style, others in the party, a lot of factors. So I don't see a problem with them.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Yes and yes.

The concept of the Monk was a very "of it's time" thing, in a way that no other class is, and it's never attained the sort of iconic distinction that, say, the Cleric has. I mean the Cleric was a weird-as-hell idea designed to counter Sir Fang, mashing up witch-hunters, the Bible, Bishop Odo and other sources, but D&D made it iconic, and now you'll find it or something like it in a million games, TT and CRPG (it hasn't quite every infiltrated literary or film fantasy, AFAIK, but that's another question).

Running off on a tangent here: you do see cleric-types in current Japanese fantasy light novels (which is what most current animes are based on) - and they're pretty close to the DnD version except they don't wear armor. Of course, in these setting fighters don't wear armor either, so it's not as much a stretch.

The reason clerics stuck, I think, is because they fill the distinct, logical niche of 'healer'. If there weren't clerics, there would be some other kind of healer, but clerics do the job well enough and are easier to attach flavor to that a more generic Healer class would be.

Tangent of a tangent: in a recent "Why no arcane half-caster?" thread, it was postulated that a big reason is the mechanical niche, while both obvious and popular, has never been linked to a good flavor-base to really complete it. Cleric is enough, as are wizard and thief, so you don't need much, and as you noted above (see, this is relevant) monks are too narrow to allow enough customization within the concept.

 

[Minigiant]

the class that has never really be done well.

The monk class was done well in 4e and 5e.The issue is that the class is very narrow and built off a narrow framework of one iconic character trope. This causes...

the class that has never felt properly integrated.

the monk to be too narrow to fit organicallyin a lot of places.

.Basically, the monk classdoesone image of a "supernatural martial artist" well but strains or flops in making any other kind of "supernatural martial artist"

 

[darjr]

Now I want to build a grappling monk tavern brawler bugbear. With a giant constricter snake companion.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Personally, I have enjoyed many iterations of the monk class, but for the sake of useful discussion, if you find them lacking, it would help with a summary of what the class should be in your view?

that is complicated as the whole class feel very narrow but artificially so as if some did not let it grow properly, I will describe it better when I get through it.

What does it look like to be "done well".



Integrated with what?

well done is often subjective but it tends towards being useful the thematic and mechanics playing well and that the whole thing tends to be a blast to play.
integrated, it has long felt like it was added on my never integrated into the setting nor adequately explain what it is which is a stumbling block to making it better.

I've played monks in every edition and enjoyed them. My current most often played PC is a monk and the DM considers it overpowered.

It may be the most flavorful base class, it is the only class that can try to stun an opponent 4 times in one round.

No fixes are needed.

That being said, if I were going to give it a fix it woud be giving it a "greater ASI" at 4th level, giving you the option a feat and an ASI, or 2 ASI (but with a restriction that no ability could be raised by more than +2 total between these "two ASI"). While it is not necessary to make this adjustment, the MAD nature of the monk places it on the lower side of the acceptable power threshold.

yeah, what you described with the stunning is a problem it really does not have the variety of options it feels like it should your mad point is good however.

The monk class was done well in 4e and 5e.The issue is that the class is very narrow and built off a narrow framework of one iconic character trope. This causes...


the monk to be too narrow to fit organicallyin a lot of places.

.Basically, the monk classdoesone image of a "supernatural martial artist" well but strains or flops in making any other kind of "supernatural martial artist"

I have figured out how to fix it but it is messy on my end for two reason
a) I have never fixed a class before or homebrewed anything to satisfaction
b) the concepts involved are not native to western fantasy nor western myth so I am having to figure it out as I go along.

turns out the monk be associated with the Shaolin is not logically wrong for a supernatural unarmed martial artist as several faiths metaphysics are more or less semi assumed to be how they are doing it because a lot of faith metaphysics got synchronised.
so high-level monks having powers influenced by such faiths would be logical as that is why many of them assumed that those powers worked on, the closet I can describe it as enlightening path faiths as they are concerned with ageing knowledge so one can improve one's situation but that is a gross oversimplification.
so high level would be similar in many cases but low-level stuff is all too samey no variety which I might have a pre-alpha solution too.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

so the psion?

Well, the UA Mystic would make for an awesome mystical monk, just add an archetype that increases the unarmed/unarmored ability of the bases class.

In 4e, Monk was indeed a psionic class. I personally love to consider the monk as the half-caster psionic class, just like the paladin is to the cleric and the ranger to the druid.

There should have been a fighting style for unarmed and unarmored fighter in the PHB for those who would love to play a brawling class without sacrificing their class or archetype choice.

 

[DND_Reborn]

that is complicated as the whole class feel very narrow but artificially so as if some did not let it grow properly, I will describe it better when I get through it.

Well, when you can expound on your description, I will be more than happy to help you in build a monk class that better fits your view.

 

[Minigiant]

I have figured out how to fix it but it is messy on my end for two reason
a) I have never fixed a class before or homebrewed anything to satisfaction
b) the concepts involved are not native to western fantasy nor western myth so I am having to figure it out as I go along.

Fixing the monk is actually not that hard.

1. Add more options of AC calculation.
2. Add more options for Unarmed and Weapon attack calculation
3. Add more attack options to choose besides Flurry of Blows.

Do those 3 things and you fix a good 90% of the issues. The problem with the monk was always 2 things. And one of them was that it was based on a ~1970s movie/tv trope and only a single martial art. It's 2021 and there are dozens of martial arts, real and fictional.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Well, the UA Mystic would make for an awesome mystical monk, just add an archetype that increases the unarmed/unarmored ability of the bases class.

In 4e, Monk was indeed a psionic class. I personally love to consider the monk as the half-caster psionic class, just like the paladin is to the cleric and the ranger to the druid.

There should have been a fighting style for unarmed and unarmored fighter in the PHB for those who would love to play a brawling class without sacrificing their class or archetype choice.

I have been considering that but that is a talk for later as the monk needs fixing first.

Well, when you can expound on your description, I will be more than happy to help you in build a monk class that better fits your view.

okay right this is tricky as writing things down in a logical manner is not my strong suit hence most of my posts are fairly short but here goes my madness.

at low-level pre subclass and early subclass, the monk is just the supernatural martial artist that it ends up being treated as.
high level 10+ I have few ideas for as I have not gotten that far.
I want to add in str monks without it ending up MAD as anything but can't see a way to do it without making it a grab levels in thing for some crazy build class.

Fixing the monk is actually not that hard.

1. Add more options of AC calculation.
2. Add more options for Unarmed and Weapon attack calculation
3. Add more attack options to choose besides Flurry of Blows.

Do those 3 things and you fix a good 90% of the issues. The problem with the monk was always 2 things. And one of them was that it was based on a ~1970s movie/tv trope and only a single martial art. It's 2021 and there are dozens of martial arts, real and fictional.

the first two I have no idea how to do but the latter I have got ideas for.

I am ripping martial arts away from the subclasses and making them a lateral choice early on as well as a thing people can get through feats.
I have work in progress templates for them.

I have divided them between martial styles, weapon styles, and energy styles.
first up energy styles.
Energy styles: the hardest to describe but let's face it at some point everyone wanted a Hadouken or a Kamehameha in D&D thus this is the area for such feats.

prototype structure for energy styles:
note all styles get stronger and unlock more options as the character levels up meaning they are always relevant
enhanced blows a cheap to useability that for one ki point lets the user enhance their blows with the damage type of a know energy style(can not have more than one active at the same time to prevent people from stacking them) this lasts for 5 of the users turns before it needs to be renewed.

bolts the most basic range option about as strong as a cantrip cost only one point to cast can be used as a bonus action they are a workhorse kind of ability

bursts/ energy sphere the middle of the road option bursts being for hitting a wide area verse the energy sphere for a longer range option but with a more accurate area of damage.

beams powerful lines or cones of a particular damage type unlocked towards the mid-levels coast more than bursts, this is your

special option different for each style always useful but often odd in execution from debuffing enemies, healing allies to flat odd stuff a mixed bag of stuff.

absorption of energy: the one-point bonus action/reaction that will make the characters day, as long as the type of damage is the same as the known energy style whatever damage type is being taken (absorption of acid damage if acid energy style was known.)instead of the character gains ki points equal to the damage they would have taken.
I will have one for each of the following damage types:
Acid: The corrosive spray of a black dragon’s breath and the dissolving enzymes secreted by a black pudding deal acid damage.
Cold: The infernal chill radiating from an ice devil’s spear and the frigid blast of a white dragon’s breath deal cold damage.
Fire: Red dragons breathe fire, and many spells conjure flames to deal fire damage.
Force: Force is pure magical energy focused on a damaging form. Most effects that deal force damage are spells, including magic missile and spiritual weapon.
Lightning: A lightning bolt spell and a blue dragon’s breath deal lightning damage.
Necrotic: Necrotic damage, dealt by certain undead and a spell such as chill touch, withers matter and even the soul.
Poison: Venomous stings and the toxic gas of a green dragon’s breath deal poison damage.
Psychic: Mental abilities such as a psionic blast deal psychic damage.
Radiant: Radiant damage, dealt by a cleric’s flame strike spell or an angel’s smiting weapon, sears the flesh like fire and overloads the spirit with power.
Thunder: A concussive burst of sound, such as the effect of the thunder wave spell, deals thunder damage.

on to the other two
Martial styles: the classic unarmed combat ideal by the end of the edition it would contain every hand to hand fighting style known to man. I will subdivide styles into strike, grappling and defence helps if I can subdivide things plus those are real-world subdivisions.

Weapon styles: the stuff using weapons ideas for it of the top of my head are blade and fist style, polearms/staffs, two-handed weapons, chain weapons(sickle and chain, Nunchaku that sort of thing.) and a ranged category for bows, crossbows, or guns if the setting will let people be gun-fu fighting.

I do not yet have a template for the weapon and Martial styles but I do know that some of the lower power abilities do not cost ki but most of the really powerful stuff does.

I do prefer some of the basic monk fixes that buff the about of ki points as they make the class a lot more fun and less fighter/barbarian style of play.
did that get part of it across?

I will do my ideas for the subclasses after I calm down to my normal whirlwind of thoughts as I feel Like I will have a panic attack.