D&D 5E What Single Thing Would You Eliminate

[ART!]

The way I see it it is this: The first level PCs arrive in the town at the edge of the wilds. There's an old mill infested with rats down by the river, a purportedly haunted mansion on top of the hill said to still hold the family's secret treasure vault, and an ancient border keep a few miles away where hobgoblins have made a forward base, probably with nefarious goals.

What tracking XP does that I don't think milestone leveling can do is allow the players to decide amongst themselves which of those things they want to take on, weighing for themselves the risk versus reward involved (with a significant chunk of that reward being XP). Tracking XP in a granular way also lets PCs probe any of these and only push it as far as they want to before pulling back. They are rewarded for what they actually choose to do (if they survive), not based on how many sessions they play or other arbitrary goals.

What you describe is exactly how the players in our group behave in our milestone-leveling games. I don't know why that is, but it suggests that there's more to that behavior than itemized XP rewards. Maybe it's a matter of how the options are presented?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Just picking one thing is tough because there are a handful of things I would drop or change if we did 5e again. I hate to sound like a broken record (because it continues a theme from my dislikes and likes), but it would be non-flat DCs. Maybe just dump the skill system as-is altogether, but I’d want to replace it with something else.

Flat DCs is the best thing. Increasing DCs for skills just because you level up is terribly dumb.
It makes progression meaningless. We had that in 4e. No thanks.

I would get rid of the healing rules as they are along with short and long rest recharges.
The pace of my adventures really don't warrant healing and recharging everything over night.

Since that is not removing but changing, I vote for bonus actions. I liked it in the beginning, but I now to believe there are better solutions.

 

[Reynard]

What you describe is exactly how the players in our group behave in our milestone-leveling games. I don't know why that is, but it suggests that there's more to that behavior than itemized XP rewards. Maybe it's a matter of how the options are presented?

Maybe. In any case, I really chafe against the "you level when I say you level" aspect of milestone XP.

I can see that if XP and leveling is not a significant driver of play it wouldn't matter, but generally speaking in ongoing games in my experience, the XP and leveling aspect of play is pretty important to players.

 

[Oofta]

Maybe. In any case, I really chafe against the "you level when I say you level" aspect of milestone XP.

I can see that if XP and leveling is not a significant driver of play it wouldn't matter, but generally speaking in ongoing games in my experience, the XP and leveling aspect of play is pretty important to players.

When I run games I simply explain that I don't use XP and we discuss as a group how quickly everyone wants to level up. For my current group it's typically every 2-3 sessions because we only meet monthly.

As far as motivations, if I can't put interesting options in front of the group or set up scenarios where they're risking their lives for something their PCs care about I would feel like I'm not doing my job as a DM.

I understand that may not work for everyone, it works for me and my groups and it's what I've been doing for the last few editions.

 

[TwoSix]

Maybe. In any case, I really chafe against the "you level when I say you level" aspect of milestone XP.

I can see that if XP and leveling is not a significant driver of play it wouldn't matter, but generally speaking in ongoing games in my experience, the XP and leveling aspect of play is pretty important to players.

I dunno. At least in my games, players are there to play. There's an assumption that if they play and adventure, the DM will reward them at appropriate intervals. I've never seen the issue of "the players won't take risks, because they know they'll level anyway even if they do nothing." I've never had a player that valued survival over actually engaging.

 

[Reynard]

I dunno. At least in my games, players are there to play. There's an assumption that if they play and adventure, the DM will reward them at appropriate intervals. I've never seen the issue of "the players won't take risks, because they know they'll level anyway even if they do nothing." I've never had a player that valued survival over actually engaging.

But why make it arbitrary when there is a system that exists that everyone can understand and use in their decision making process?

I should state that my objections are mostly based on assuming a very open game with a lot of options and player driven action. I have successfully used milestone leveling in more linear campaigns (Avernus being the most recent example) and in that case everyone was along for the ride. But in my current Rime campaign, the milestone leveling really bugs me.

Anyway, I appreciate that everyone plays differently, I just think that if the fate of the PCs is in the players' hands, that includes risks versus rewards in the form of XP.

 

[TwoSix]

But why make it arbitrary when there is a system that exists that everyone can understand and use in their decision making process?

I should state that my objections are mostly based on assuming a very open game with a lot of options and player driven action. I have successfully used milestone leveling in more linear campaigns (Avernus being the most recent example) and in that case everyone was along for the ride. But in my current Rime campaign, the milestone leveling really bugs me.

Anyway, I appreciate that everyone plays differently, I just think that if the fate of the PCs is in the players' hands, that includes risks versus rewards in the form of XP.

I think it's pretty easy to reverse that and say "Why systemize something that can be handwaved?"

I've never played in a game where the possible amount of XP we could earn drove any sort of decision making, even dating back to 2E. So the idea of risk and rewards driving play through XP is somewhat alien to me. As a group, we've always decided to do whatever portion of an adventure made the most sense in character to attempt. I just don't see how XP would impact that calculus, even a little.

 

[Dausuul]

There are dozens and dozens (surely well over 100) of Class-neutral Minor Action Powers/Features available to all 4e PCs in form of:

Feat Powers/Features
Skill Powers
Theme Powers/Features
Paragon Path Powers/Features
Epic Destiny Powers/Features
Magic Item Powers
Boon/Martial Practices (et al) Powers

These are not "actions available to all PCs." You can't look through the list of feats mid-combat and decide "I want to use this feat now." Your options are limited by your chargen selections--exactly the same as class features. Whether the chargen selection is called a "class" or a "feat" or a "paragon path" is beside the point.

A lot of things that are object interactions in 5e were minor actions in 4e. Drawing or stowing a weapon or item, opening a door, etc. Drinking a potion was also a minor action (though you’d usually have to draw it as a separate minor action first, which usually meant trading down either your standard action or your move). I think dropping prone was a minor action too.

Ah, true, I had forgotten those. So, basically, "minor actions" were split into "bonus actions" and "object interactions" in 5E.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I fall into the camp of preferring milestone leveling because for me and my players... we don't see Experience Points as a reward in and of itself. XP isn't a prize. For us... our reward for adventuring is the narrative we've been a part of, and the character personalities and relationships we have built up and grown with. The story is the reward, not the mechanics. And leveling up is merely the game mechanic that gives us new abilities that allow us to interact with the story going forward in new and different ways. So the point of milestones for us is that we've concluded a part of the story where we've interacted with it in a certain manner with certain game mechanics to push that interaction along... and now can be the time for us to get new mechanics that will allow us to interact with this next part of the story slightly differently.

Gaining pass without trace changes the story of our adventures, because now our party is more likely to be able to sneak into places successfully, where it might not have been possible before. How we now interact with the narrative is new and different, because we have gained an ability that changes it. And that new story is what me and my players find rewarding, not just gaining XP or gaining gold, or gaining magic items. Those things are nice, sure... but again, they are only there to let us spend them on new ways to interact with the story.

And in case someone was wondering... yes, we absolutely could play the game with no leveling whatsoever, all characters remaining at 1st level for the entire campaign. We don't really need to have all those new mechanics that allow us to change the narrative... we could just change the story ourselves. But because a significant part of the game of D&D is the combat board game... having new ways to play that part of D&D is important., because D&D combat is... fine... but isn't particularly compelling on its own. There are plenty of other board games I find better and more fun as games... and it's only by adding or changing the game mechanics and the story and narrative surrounding the D&D combat that keeps us truly engaged with it.

 

[Reynard]

I think it's pretty easy to reverse that and say "Why systemize something that can be handwaved?"

True. Let's do that with combat next.