D&D 5E What Single Thing Would You Eliminate

[Charlaquin]

What minor action in 4E is available to every PC? It's been a while, but I don't remember any. All minor actions I know of come from specific abilities or items... just like bonus actions in 5E.

A lot of things that are object interactions in 5e were minor actions in 4e. Drawing or stowing a weapon or item, opening a door, etc. Drinking a potion was also a minor action (though you’d usually have to draw it as a separate minor action first, which usually meant trading down either your standard action or your move). I think dropping prone was a minor action too.

 

[Lanefan]

Then let me turn that around. If player agency is disassociated with the meta-game of class leveling, what does XP have to do with player agency?

Not giving individual xp affects player choices by altering or even removing the risk-reward component.

If PCs get individual xp based on what they get involved in in-fiction then the players are free to choose whether or not to get their PCs involved, in full knowledge that choosing to get involved may have drawbacks (higher risk) but also benefits (more xp). This very intentionally dis-incentivizes hanging back, no matter the situation.

Milestone levelling or group xp actually incentivizes hanging back and letting others take the risk, given that you're all going to get the same reward anyway. On first glance, this seems utterly inane.

Of course, if one's game really doesn't have that much risk involved then it's all rather moot...along with IMO most of the fun of playing.

 

[cbwjm]

Not giving individual xp affects player choices by altering or even removing the risk-reward component.

If PCs get individual xp based on what they get involved in in-fiction then the players are free to choose whether or not to get their PCs involved, in full knowledge that choosing to get involved may have drawbacks (higher risk) but also benefits (more xp). This very intentionally dis-incentivizes hanging back, no matter the situation.

Milestone levelling or group xp actually incentivizes hanging back and letting others take the risk, given that you're all going to get the same reward anyway. On first glance, this seems utterly inane.

Of course, if one's game really doesn't have that much risk involved then it's all rather moot...along with IMO most of the fun of playing.

I think that issue is more of a group issue. I've never run or played in a game that used milestone levelling (or didn't give out individual XP awards) where people didn't take risks or just spent their time at the back while others took the risks. From what I've seen, players in my groups want to get in the thick of things and hopefully win the day.

 

[TwoSix]

I think that issue is more of a group issue. I've never run or played in a game that used milestone levelling (or didn't give out individual XP awards) where people didn't take risks or just spent their time at the back while others took the risks. From what I've seen, players in my groups want to get in the thick of things and hopefully win the day.

This. I think a lot of old-school players underestimate how common performative roleplaying (acting out scenes, displaying your character abilities through combat or otherwise) is as a motivator of play. Attenuated challenge just means there's less need to play smart and more chances to flex your stuff.

There are a lot of games out there (not just TTRPGs) in which challenge play is not really the primary motivator.

 

[Lanefan]

I think that issue is more of a group issue. I've never run or played in a game that used milestone levelling (or didn't give out individual XP awards) where people didn't take risks or just spent their time at the back while others took the risks.

I've played in individual-xp games where certain players/PCs still hung back and let others take the risk, leading to both in-character and at-the-table resentment; had it been a milestone or group-xp system it would have been even worse.

From what I've seen, players in my groups want to get in the thick of things and hopefully win the day.

IME it's a mix. Some - like me - usually want to stick their noses in it. Others don't; and as long as the reward matches the risk I'm more or less cool with this. It's when those who don't take the risks end up getting the rewards anyway (we see this most often in treasury division) that tees me off.

 

[Oofta]

Not giving individual xp affects player choices by altering or even removing the risk-reward component.

If PCs get individual xp based on what they get involved in in-fiction then the players are free to choose whether or not to get their PCs involved, in full knowledge that choosing to get involved may have drawbacks (higher risk) but also benefits (more xp). This very intentionally dis-incentivizes hanging back, no matter the situation.

Milestone levelling or group xp actually incentivizes hanging back and letting others take the risk, given that you're all going to get the same reward anyway. On first glance, this seems utterly inane.

Of course, if one's game really doesn't have that much risk involved then it's all rather moot...along with IMO most of the fun of playing.

I don't care if someone holds back or charges headlong into battle. It's their character. If the group is too cautious, odds are they will fail to achieve meaningful goals or suffer losses which has always been enough motivation for any players in my group.

The idea that I would need to use a carrot to tell people what they should be doing is just foreign to me, and not my idea of fun.

Different strokes for different folks and all, but it wouldn't work for me.

On topic of player agency, it seems to me you're actually taking it away because they're no longer playing their PC, they're just responding to your carrots.

But, this is off topic. You just have a style that wouldn't work for me. If it works for you and your group, more power to you.

 

[Manbearcat]

Minor actions were for every PC at every turn, while bonus action are only for specific spells or abilities.

IME minor actions slowed down play because everyone wanted to maximise their turn (coupled with 4e having a lot of minor action powers etc). So it slowed down an already slow system even further.

What minor action in 4E is available to every PC? It's been a while, but I don't remember any. All minor actions I know of come from specific abilities or items... just like bonus actions in 5E.

There are dozens and dozens (surely well over 100) of Class-neutral Minor Action Powers/Features available to all 4e PCs in form of:

Feat Powers/Features
Skill Powers
Theme Powers/Features
Paragon Path Powers/Features
Epic Destiny Powers/Features
Magic Item Powers
Boon/Martial Practices (et al) Powers

 

[Charlaquin]

Having thought about the topic question for quite a while now, I think I’m going to have to go with Vancian magic. It just doesn’t work for me on any level.

 

[cbwjm]

Having thought about the topic question for quite a while now, I think I’m going to have to go with Vancian magic. It just doesn’t work for me on any level.

Vancian magic is one of those things I've learned put up with. It's better now that we have cantrips and you don't have to prep a spell into each spell slot, but I'd still much prefer something else. Actually, I'd be fairly keen on something like the magic in dragonlance saga where you know a few spheres of power and can spend power to create effects within those spheres.

 

[delericho]

Lots of things, many of which have been mentioned in the thread. But if I'm choosing only one:

I would break the link between the "XP budget" used to build encounters and the XP award given for completing those encounters. Once you have more experienced players (note: players, not characters), it's likely that you'll want to use tougher encounters to challenge them. But, as written, that has the net effect of boosting XP awards and speeding the rate at which the game progresses.