D&D 5E Cantrip nerf (house rule brainstorm)

[dave2008]

The current D&D fanbase is invested in the lore/setting of 5e Forgotten Realms as-is.

Is it though? We have a lot of new players to D&D and if they are only using 5e material thenreally hasn't been a lot of lore about FR that would suggest is a gonzo high magic setting IMO. On top of that, something 50% (or more) of people play in their own homebrew setting. Do we really have any idea if the current D&D fanbase is truly invested in FR lore? I don't think we do.

 

[NotAYakk]

I was about 90% sure that would be your reply. I almost added this to my initial response: They are 15th level now, but that has been pretty much true from about the beginning and definitely ever since 4th or 5th level.

The thing is, using an action on a combat Cantrip isn't a great contribution.

At level 1, fire bolt deals 1d10 damage. Its big advantage is that it (a) uses intelligence, and (b) looks magicky.

A 14 dex wizard with a light crossbow has -1 to hit and +1 to damage if they just use a light crossbow over firebolt. That is small enough that you won't really notice the difference in the results of a combat.

But a lower dex wizard ends up being increasingly incompetent; in effect, the lack of FB cantrip means that combat utility of low level wizards is tied to dex (or strength in theory) unless you go with the 5 minute adventuring day of "1 fight per day".

At 1 fight per day, even a level 1 wizard has enough leveled slots to contribute with no cantrips, regardless of dex.

By level 5, FB far outpaces the crossbow; the 18 int wizard has +2 to hit and does 11 damage, vs the 6.5 of the 14 dex light crossbow wizard. If there is an extended adventuring day (more than 1 or 2 encounters), that wizard could run short of leveled spell slots.

OTOH, even that 11 damage starts meaning less. A level 5 XBE gloomstalker ranger might be putting out 33 damage almost every round on hits (HM, Bonus action, Gloomstalker bonus attack on first round, etc), and the wizard not contributing 11 at similar accuracy isn't going to be a huge factor in the outcome of the fight.

As others have noted, the effect is much larger with Warlocks. They rely on the Eldritch Blast cantrip far more than full spellcasters do, especially when (as many DMs seem to) push 1 big encounter adventuring days. With many small encounters with short rests between them, they have slots for most rounds; with a single big many-round encounter, they run out of spell slot gas very fast.

 

[jmartkdr2]

The thing is, using an action on a combat Cantrip isn't a great contribution.

I think that was the designer's point, though: attack cantrips aren't supposed to be a great option (unless you're a warlock), they're supposed to be a 'better-than-nothing' option when none of your limited-use options (ie spells) are worth the cost.

My 18th level wizard uses a lightning version of firebolt (for flavor reasons) fairly often, when the enemies aren't worth a spell slot. In dangerous fights, she won't do that until all the significant enemies are dead and we're just mopping up. Some fights are more about setting the scene though, so she'll save resources and let the weapon-users do the work. In other words, she uses lightning zap instead of dodging when there's no reason to do more.

Which is why the limit feels odd to those of us who've played full casters - it's not limiting anything you need to be using anyways, so it feels like added complexity for little to no change in how you actually play the game. Under this rule, I might buy a hand crossbow to not waste turns, but I'd probably just dodge on those turns. That seems like a better use of the time,, since I'd want to make sure I have my utility cantrips.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

5e Forgotten Realms certainly does not pass this smell test. Nor does any other setting published for 5e by WOTC.

Sure they do. In FR, Waterdeep has magical plumbing and assumes food production and hygiene and various other advancements, it just isn’t a sci-fi world, so it doesn’t get into why and how. Certainly, it doesn’t assume that every spell and item in the core books are at all common, or even necessarily available at all.

Eberron is totally believable with the assumptions of the PHB. It’s a world where irrigation, hygiene, travel, industry, war, basically everything is more advanced because of common spells and common magic items.

Your whole “gonzo” claim is bunk from start to finish. You’re just mistaking your preferences for something more than preference.

 

[Jaeger]

Is it though? We have a lot of new players to D&D and if they are only using 5e material then really hasn't been a lot of lore about FR that would suggest is a gonzo high magic setting IMO. On top of that, something 50% (or more) of people play in their own homebrew setting. Do we really have any idea if the current D&D fanbase is truly invested in FR lore? I don't think we do.

FR not a gonzo high magic setting?

I just recently played through the Waterdeep Heist AP. Just that little corner of FR alone is certainly Gonzo high fantasy.

It is clear that we have incompatible ideas of what a Gonzo High Magic setting is.

WOTC have invested a lot of time, money and have put out a lot of product selling the current incarnation of FR.

I think it is highly unlikely that they will want to put a potential 'lack of investment' in the current lore by the current fanbase to the test.

Sure they do. In FR, Waterdeep has magical plumbing and assumes food production and hygiene and various other advancements, it just isn’t a sci-fi world, so it doesn’t get into why and how. Certainly, it doesn’t assume that every spell and item in the core books are at all common, or even necessarily available at all.

Eberron is totally believable with the assumptions of the PHB. It’s a world where irrigation, hygiene, travel, industry, war, basically everything is more advanced because of common spells and common magic items.

Your whole “gonzo” claim is bunk from start to finish. You’re just mistaking your preferences for something more than preference.

Waterdeep: All those high powered mages and fighters living in the the city, and they still have yet to clean out the undermountain...

Eberron: All those 'modern' equivalents 'because magic' - yet they are still fighting with swords, bows, and arrows...

With both settings still having a medieval aesthetic.

It is obvious that our definitions of what is "totally believable" are incompatible.

 

[tetrasodium]

Eberron: All those 'modern' equivalents 'because magic' - yet they are still fighting with swords, bows, and arrows...

With both settings still having a medieval aesthetic.

It is obvious that our definitions of what is "totally believable" are incompatible.

exploring eberron 18-22 in a nutshell talks about arcane artillery, arcane landmines, airforces, battlemagic, warforged titans, wandslingers, wands/staffs/etc, & rising from the last war has a crewed gargantuan liberty prime/mech type warforged colossus

Techwise the setting is more late 1800s early 1900s level of development but magic as a science & dragonshards rather than technology & oil/electricity

 

[doctorbadwolf]

t is obvious that our definitions of what is "totally believable" are incompatible.

What’s obvious is that you haven’t actually read the Eberron guide.

oh, as for Waterdeep, why would those mages risk their lives to go into a death trap constructed by a much more powerful mage, the denizens of which have gone wild and evolved on their own since his supposed demise?

They can live quite comfortably without doing so.

 

[Jaeger]

exploring eberron 18-22 in a nutshell talks about arcane artillery, arcane landmines, airforces, battlemagic, warforged titans, wandslingers, wands/staffs/etc, & rising from the last war has a crewed gargantuan liberty prime/mech type warforged colossus

Caught some similar themed stuff here: http://keith-baker.com/firearms-in-eberron/

Paragraphs of text justifying why 'for reasons' the firearm equivalents in the setting are still not quite good enough to make fighting with bows and swords by PC's obsolete...

If he had just said: "Because D&D" it would have saved him a lot of typing.

oh, as for Waterdeep, why would those mages risk their lives to go into a death trap constructed by a much more powerful mage, the denizens of which have gone wild and evolved on their own since his supposed demise?

Between the:
Griffon Cavalry - Elite airbourne division of the City Guard, led by Lord Moedt.
City Guard - Waterdeep's army, patrolling the city and the surrounding countryside.
City Navy - The force assigned to protect the seas around the city and the busy merchant shipping lanes.
City Watch - The police force of the city, with powers of arrest over its citizens.
Gray Hands - An elite force of adventurers answering directly to the Lords of Waterdeep, for those who need a more powerful option.

Waterdeep is a city with a standing army. It makes no sense that the undermountain would be allowed to remain a hazard to the city and its tax paying citizens.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Caught some similar themed stuff here: http://keith-baker.com/firearms-in-eberron/

Paragraphs of text justifying why 'for reasons' the firearm equivalents in the setting are still not quite good enough to make fighting with bows and swords by PC's obsolete...

If he had just said: "Because D&D" it would have saved him a lot of typing.

Firearms took quite a while to obsolete melee weapons and bows.
He also goes into detail on how DMs can use the setting conceit that industry is magical, rather than technological, and specifically how that might mean that the Eberron crossbow is much more advanced with magically crafted reloading mechanism and more powerful arms, or any number of other things, but none of it is necessary to make the setting believable.

Between the:
Griffon Cavalry - Elite airbourne division of the City Guard, led by Lord Moedt.
City Guard - Waterdeep's army, patrolling the city and the surrounding countryside.
City Navy - The force assigned to protect the seas around the city and the busy merchant shipping lanes.
City Watch - The police force of the city, with powers of arrest over its citizens.
Gray Hands - An elite force of adventurers answering directly to the Lords of Waterdeep, for those who need a more powerful option.

Waterdeep is a city with a standing army. It makes no sense that the undermountain would be allowed to remain a hazard to the city and its tax paying citizens.

Literally only Force Grey and the like would even survive a trip into Undermountain.

And here’s the thing. In real life, about 3 million people live with 20 miles of Mt. Vesuvius. It will explode again, and that event will result in thousands of completely avoidable deaths.

Because people ignore danger that isn’t in their face. Every day. Throughout history, in every region of the world, regardless of culture. So you are claiming, presumably with a straight face, that it is unbelievable that a city would ignore the danger of a thing that they never see, that rarely actually threatens the city, and that actively makes the city money? Really!?

I’m flabbergasted. You’re objectively wrong. Absolutely they would largely ignore under mountain.

They’d have to throw most of the lives of all the forces you listed to do anything permanent about it, it threatens the city very rarely, and it’s one of the main reasons there are so many adventurers in the city in the first place.

I just cannot fathom the idea that anyone could find it unbelievable that people would be illogical and shortsighted, en masse.

 

[Ace]

Hello all,

A bugbear about 5e (for me at least) was the idea of unlimited spammable cantrips for casters. To us 'get off my lawn' grognards, this seems a touch excessive.

I had an idea for a nerf I wanted to brainstorm - Each cantrip can only be cast a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus. Recover all uses upon short rest.

And discuss...

Take away cantrips like that and you'll just end up like 3E where nearly every mage carries a crossbow and after a spell or two becomes basically an inferior crossbowman.