D&D 5E What Single Thing Would You Add

[Oofta]

We can't have a discussion if you ignore all those other things I said, like how THAC0 was capped in a 20 digit range and ascending AC isn't, for example. Another example is that one step of subtraction is generally easier than four or more steps of addition. It does not "lose in every difference". It's contextual. Sometimes it's easier, sometimes it's not. I already listed out in detail several examples. If you choose to ignore that part it's not my fault.

If limited range is the hill you want to die on, go ahead. I mean, you'll still be dead, but whatever.

With bounded accuracy, the numbers you need to hit are slightly higher, but unlike previous edition (especially 3E) you aren't adding up that many. The vast majority of target numbers are between 10-20, with skills maxing out at 30. Having an ever so slightly smaller range is not particularly significant.

As far as your other justifications like having the numbers written down ahead of time, that's something you can still do if addition is difficult for a person. I've done it for a player.

You like THAC0 for some reason. That's fine. You are allowed to have a preference. But this insistence that it is "better" despite all the studies that show addition is easier for most people. The multiple bonuses we had in 3E is a red herring that has nothing to do with it, the number of bonuses was a separate issue. I would also say just adding everything up (even in 5E with Bless for example) is easier.

It's easier for most people to roll a D20, then add all modifiers. If someone rolls a 10, has +5 because of static modifiers and a +3 from Bless:
10 + 5 + 3 = 18 is much easier than 10 - (10 + 5 +3) = -8.
THAC0 is just counterintuitive for most people. It's also an extra step.

Then add in things like cover with a -2 penalty
10 + 5 + 3 = 18 then subtract 2 so 16 versus 10 - (10 + 5 +3) = -8 then subtract 2 ... wait am I adding a negative to a negative so I'm really adding, maybe? Or do I subtract it? I mean, I need to reduce my chance to hit so -6 I guess.

But, again, adding is simply easier for most people. I have no idea where "all the things you've said" because as far as I can tell it boils down to "for me subtracting is easy, 3.x had too many modifiers and you can write the numbers down ahead of time". If subtracting is easier for you, great. It's not for most people. The overabundance of modifiers from 3.x are an issue no matter what system you use, and people still can and do just write down numbers ahead of time.

 

[Sacrosanct]

None of your complaints about ascending AC are universal to that method though - in fact, none of them apply to 5e near as I can tell. (AC's stop at 25, you only need to add once, the only difference is addition vs subtraction.)

So saying THAC0 is better and would be an improvement, the context is "compared to what people are currently doing" - not compared to the worst-case version of another setup. You're comparing apple pie to rotten oranges and saying apples are better.

Ascending AC isn't limited to 5e. And 5e isn't the only game people are playing that uses ascending AC. Your analogy is flawed.

 

[Blue]

We can't have a discussion if you ignore all those other things I said, like how THAC0 was capped in a 20 digit range and ascending AC isn't, for example. Another example is that one step of subtraction is generally easier than four or more steps of addition. It does not "lose in every difference". It's contextual. Sometimes it's easier, sometimes it's not. I already listed out in detail several examples. If you choose to ignore that part it's not my fault.

You worked out THAC0 ahead of time with all the modifiers yet you refuse to do so with Attack Bonus and therefore call it more steps. You ignore all of my points yet try to claim that yours should not be ignored.

As said, apply a level playing field and for the three points I detailed - unified mechanic, single step of addition easier than single step of subtraction, and intuitive higher=better like everything else, THAC0 fails on every criteria.

 

[billd91]

You worked out THAC0 ahead of time with all the modifiers yet you refuse to do so with Attack Bonus and therefore call it more steps. You ignore all of my points yet try to claim that yours should not be ignored.

As said, apply a level playing field and for the three points I detailed - unified mechanic, single step of addition easier than single step of subtraction, and intuitive higher=better like everything else, THAC0 fails on every criteria.

Which isn't to say that THAC0 didn't have its day. It did. It was a definite improvement over having to look up your attack result on a table. It's just left behind by an even better improvement.

 

[Horwath]

3d6 instead of d20

 

[Sacrosanct]

You worked out THAC0 ahead of time with all the modifiers yet you refuse to do so with Attack Bonus and therefore call it more steps. You ignore all of my points yet try to claim that yours should not be ignored.

I didn't refuse to. As I said upthread that you ignored and omitted from what you quoted from me, that # when adding changed. It wasn't the same. BAB bonuses were different in 3e from one attack to another. There were many more scenarios that gave you a modifier one way or the other that differed from each attack than in THAC0 versions of the game. And then the numbers grew way beyond a 20 digit spread. All these things matter, and either didn't allow you to pre-calculate like you could in AD&D, or you had to have an entire sheet dedicated to all of these various scenarios for each weapon (which I've never seen)

that's what I mean by an even playing field. Because it wasn't. On the surface adding is easier, but not always the case when you're dealing with much greater values and more steps involved to get to the final value. It's contextual. I've literally given you multiple examples of scenario where THAC0 is easier, and you continue to ignore them and make blanket statements like THAC0 fails in every example. That's objectively not true. So if you refuse to acknowledge and ignore the examples I gave that prove how it doesn't always fail, then I think we're done because you're digging your heels on an argument that is objectively not true. So have a good day.

 

[Faolyn]

Skillpoints.
Profiency doesn't do it for me.

What I do is let you take half your Int mod, rounded up, and take that number of additional skills, tools, and languages.

 

[Flamestrike]

Changing balance and resource management to [encounter] rather than [adventuring day] so the game could be encounters per day neutral.

 

[MichaelSomething]

3d6 instead of d20

Personally, I would only allow that for lawful character. Chaos would embrace the more unpredictable d20.

 

[Oofta]

I didn't refuse to. As I said upthread that you ignored and omitted from what you quoted from me, that # when adding changed. It wasn't the same. BAB bonuses were different in 3e from one attack to another. There were many more scenarios that gave you a modifier one way or the other that differed from each attack than in THAC0 versions of the game. And then the numbers grew way beyond a 20 digit spread. All these things matter, and either didn't allow you to pre-calculate like you could in AD&D, or you had to have an entire sheet dedicated to all of these various scenarios for each weapon (which I've never seen)

that's what I mean by an even playing field. Because it wasn't. On the surface adding is easier, but not always the case when you're dealing with much greater values and more steps involved to get to the final value. It's contextual. I've literally given you multiple examples of scenario where THAC0 is easier, and you continue to ignore them and make blanket statements like THAC0 fails in every example. That's objectively not true. So if you refuse to acknowledge and ignore the examples I gave that prove how it doesn't always fail, then I think we're done because you're digging your heels on an argument that is objectively not true. So have a good day.

But that's an issue with 3E that has nothing to do with THAC0. If you added in the number of bonuses and modifications to a system that used THAC0 it would be just be even worse than what 3E had.