D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[QuentinGeorge]

That sounds like envy to me. If you want the nice things of others that you can't make yourself, you are envious of them. I agree about the Dothraki, though. They had quite a bit of wealth from those they conquered and received tribute from.

Sort of. But the attitude was less "wow, look what they have? so lucky. I want it." and more "we have the right to take what we want from the soft settled folk since might makes right".Groups like the Mongols and Turks long resisted becoming sedentary folk themselves even when most of the subjects were since they saw it as a kind of weak "unfree" existence. However the natural forces eventually transformed most of the groups (look at how the southern Europeans transformed the Germans and Scandinavians, the people of Syria and the Levant transformed the Arabs and Turks, and the folk of Mesopotamia transformed the Parthians).

 

[Sithlord]

Sort of. But the attitude was less "wow, look what they have? so lucky. I want it." and more "we have the right to take what we want from the soft settled folk since might makes right".Groups like the Mongols and Turks long resisted becoming sedentary folk themselves even when most of the subjects were since they saw it as a kind of weak "unfree" existence. However the natural forces eventually transformed most of the groups (look at how the southern Europeans transformed the Germans and Scandinavians, the people of Syria and the Levant transformed the Arabs and Turks, and the folk of Mesopotamia transformed the Parthians).

That just how they justify their envy.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

That just how they justify their envy.

You're oversimplifying it and keep in mind, you have been raised in the mindset of sedentary civilisation so you're going to have problem adjusting your thought processes to a completely different lifestyle. But it's not true generally, since if they were really envious of that lifestyle they would have settled themselves and lived like that. It's not that simple.

 

[Maxperson]

You're oversimplifying it and keep in mind, you have been raised in the mindset of sedentary civilisation so you're going to have problem adjusting your thought processes to a completely different lifestyle. But it's not true generally, since if they were really envious of that lifestyle they would have settled themselves and lived like that. It's not that simple.

Not envious of the lifestyle. Envious of the things. Why settle down and do it yourself when you can just take what you envy?

 

[BookTenTiger]

Uncivilized humans existed among all races. Which race is he using over any of the others?

Orcs

@Sithlord is applying the descriptor of "uncivilized" to an entire race.

That is practicing racism.

Now to be fair, it's practicing racism in a fantasy setting. Just like how if I were to play a campaign in which the characters attempted to wipe out every orc, I would be practicing genocide in a fantasy setting.

It's fine to do that at your own game! But I know I don't want WotC making that a default for playing D&D.

 

[Sithlord]

You're oversimplifying it and keep in mind, you have been raised in the mindset of sedentary civilisation so you're going to have problem adjusting your thought processes to a completely different lifestyle. But it's not true generally, since if they were really envious of that lifestyle they would have settled themselves and lived like that. It's not that simple.

I’m not making a real life social economic system Just an allegory for greedy envious people that will kill to take what other peoples work for. And many wars have been fought for that reason

 

[Maxperson]

Orcs

@Sithlord is applying the descriptor of "uncivilized" to an entire race.

That is practicing racism.

It doesn't meet either definition of racism, though.

Now to be fair, it's practicing racism in a fantasy setting. Just like how if I were to play a campaign in which the characters attempted to wipe out every orc, I would be practicing genocide in a fantasy setting.

It's fine to do that at your own game! But I know I don't want WotC making that a default for playing D&D.

I don't care if they make them more neutral and leave it to specific settings to change orcs. It's not as if there weren't good orcs living in society along side humans in the Forgotten Realms of 3e, including in positions of authority. In practice, they've already been what you are asking for.

 

[Sithlord]

It doesn't meet either definition of racism, though.

I don't care if they make them more neutral and leave it to specific settings to change orcs. It's not as if there weren't good orcs living in society along side humans in the Forgotten Realms of 3e, including in positions of authority. In practice, they've already been what you are asking for.

I also have entire fictional made up races that have a utopian civilization without poverty as NPC’s. I guess that’s racist too.

 

[BookTenTiger]

I’m not making a real life social economic system Just an allegory for greedy envious people that will kill to take what other peoples work for. And many wars have been fought for that reason

You have every right to play the game how you want. You even have the right to play out racist allegories if you want.

But do you think WotC should be doing that as a default (for example, in 6e)?

I feel like all these orc threads come down to people saying two things:

1) Wizards of the Coast should continue to move the default game away from racist tropes.

2) Nobody can make me change how I play my game.

The thing is, those two arguments are compatible. WotC can continue to evolve the game, and people can critique the tropes of fantasy settings, AND you can keep playing the game how you want.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not envious of the lifestyle. Envious of the things. Why settle down and do it yourself when you can just take what you envy?

That doesn’t map to history at all, as it would rely on nomadic peoples being lazy or uncreative, which is objectively not the case.