D&D 5E Paladin and Ranger Are Backward

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
I'd do you one better.

The Ranger really should be a prep class and all the favored enemies, favored terrains, and subclasses should have additional spells known.

Hunter: hunter's mark, conjure barrage
Favored Terrain Forest: entangle, spider climb
Favored Enemy Dragon: absorb elements, protection from energy
Favored Terrain Desert: create or destroy water, blur
Fravored Enemy Humaniond: alarm, wind wall
I really REALLY like this.
I like that idea. Mostly for favored terrain, because I do think that preparing special “banes” for, and salves against, different creatures is a more thematic route.
I can get down with this too...

And I am a STAUNCH "non-spell reliant Ranger" guy, through and through. But I LOVE this idea for breaking down and diversifying -and narratively differentiating- spell-using rangers.

I might have to actually rewrite up a new Ranger class for my homebrew... like, scrap years and years of design and development (and vacillation) over the Ranger to rebuild, from the ground up, with this subsystem in mind.

Really...like a legit "mind blown" moment... and I was SURE I knew what Rangers "were" and what I wanted Rangers to be...
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I really REALLY like this.

I can get down with this too...

And I am a STAUNCH "non-spell reliant Ranger" guy, through and through. But I LOVE this idea for breaking down and diversifying -and narratively differentiating- spell-using rangers.

I might have to actually rewrite up a new Ranger class for my homebrew... like, scrap years and years of design and development (and vacillation) over the Ranger to rebuild, from the ground up, with this subsystem in mind.

Really...like a legit "mind blown" moment... and I was SURE I knew what Rangers "were" and what I wanted Rangers to be...
I’d love to throw ideas around more on the subject, then. See where we end up. Even if we don’t end up in the same place, it’ll be interesting.

Do we agree on the following list of ideas?
  • Prepared casting
  • Ritual casting - possibly with a unique access to higher level rituals than they have slots, and thus more powerful with rituals than with spells?
  • Rewrite Natural Explorer to be less auto-win, more “help the team on group checks” type stuff, and give each favored terrain 1 or 2 always prepared spells.
  • IMO there is still room to add at least part of Deft Explorer to Natural Explorer. Maybe just the expertise at level 1? Especially since the prepared spell would have to be level 2 or 3. Then keep the later level deft Explorer features as well.
  • Favored Enemy gets a ribbony “you can communicate and understand simple ideas regardless of language” feature and 1-2 Banes that are essentially specialized poisons that bypass resistance and immunity when used on your favored enemy, and act as a debuff that makes the team better at taking down the enemy.
  • Rewrite primeval awareness to not use a spell slot and to be more interesting and useful.
 


Well yes, if you take the (near unanimously) top rated paladin subclass and put it next to the (again, near unanimously) worst rated ranger subclass it won't even be close.

If you use the fixes to the ranger, especially the beast master ranger, available in Tasha's; the ranger will fare better. If instead you compare to the gloomstalker ranger (Xanathar's) the ranger will likely keep up.

That said, I think changing the Ranger to spells prepared and allow the full appeal list is a decent idea.
I'm just sharing my actual play experience.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I'm just sharing my actual play experience.
And thank you for that. Actual play experience tend to be more valuable (certainly for me) than white room analysis.

In this case, your actual play experience really seems to comport with that of others experience with both classes. And really shows that the beast master ranger is underpowered (I tend to think that underpowered classes need to be raised, not other classes lowered).

Have you had a chance to look at the Tasha's changes? I think they close the gap decently.
 
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steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
I’d love to throw ideas around more on the subject, then. See where we end up. Even if we don’t end up in the same place, it’ll be interesting.

Do we agree on the following list of ideas?
  • Prepared casting
  • Ritual casting - possibly with a unique access to higher level rituals than they have slots, and thus more powerful with rituals than with spells?
  • Rewrite Natural Explorer to be less auto-win, more “help the team on group checks” type stuff, and give each favored terrain 1 or 2 always prepared spells.
  • IMO there is still room to add at least part of Deft Explorer to Natural Explorer. Maybe just the expertise at level 1? Especially since the prepared spell would have to be level 2 or 3. Then keep the later level deft Explorer features as well.
  • Favored Enemy gets a ribbony “you can communicate and understand simple ideas regardless of language” feature and 1-2 Banes that are essentially specialized poisons that bypass resistance and immunity when used on your favored enemy, and act as a debuff that makes the team better at taking down the enemy.
  • Rewrite primeval awareness to not use a spell slot and to be more interesting and useful.
I can get down with most of that.

I, personally, as far as 5e is concerned, do think that a spell slot expense is, really, a minimum requirement for a 1 mile per level (or 6 miles! in favored terrain) esoteric radar. If you wanted to change it, narratively, to be a ritual (listening to the ground, studying the surroundings, sniffing the air for 10 minutes, whatever) instead of a spell slot, I could maybe see that. Make the expense a matter of time consumption...in this case, maybe limit it by your Perception bonus times per day...or per week...something. I mean, it is a massively powerful thing that gobsmacked me, from the moment of 5e's release, that it would be only a 3rd level feature.

Conversely, I think Land Stride and Vanish are both far too late in the character's development.

I would also insist on the favored enemy being linked othe favored terrain -particularly if we are heading down the rabbit hole to link "bonus always prepared terrain specific" spells to the class framework.

I like them becoming, like way down the road, post 10th-12th level, better (i.e. higher level) ritualists than casters. They, after all, supposed to be "half casters."

The story fluff on what a Bane is, I think can be opened up a bit to allow for some kind of poison, or just knowing the weak spots of your preferred enemies, or special instruction/particular technique from some mentor, and/or incorporating some natural magic into your blow (PF magus-like) to boost damage, et al...but leave that to the player, narratively, to decide the "how" their/this particular ranger achieves their bonus "Bane" damage.

Those are some of my initial thoughts bouncing off your list/ideas.
 

And thank you for that. Actual play experience tend to be more valuable (certainly for me) that white room analysis.

In this case, your actual play experience really seems to comport with that of others experience with both classes. And really shows that the beast master ranger is underpowered (I tend to think that underpowered classes need to be raised, not other classes lowered).

Have you had a chance to look at the Tasha's changes? I think they close the gap decently.
Yes, we used those changes. By the end, the ranger even had a 29 strength thanks to a belt of storm giant strength, a +3 weapon, etc. It wasn't enough. Again, I think the ranger is a bit too fiddly for that player, as you need to know how to coordinate all the moving parts to get the most out of it in combat. But even if he had done that...hard to compete in raw power with a paladin dropping multiple smites per turn. If I have another paladin in a future campaign I'll houserule it to limit divine smites to once per turn. The paladin was always on the top end of the power curve but it got out of control in Tier 4.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
That's fine, but it shouldn't be tied to specific favored enemies or terrain. That's one of the primary problems with the PHB ranger.
It absolutely should.

That problem with PHB ranger is optional ribbons features are treated as core power features. The ranger can have situational feature. Just not replacing core power ones.

Exploration spells should not compete with combat spells. It's a lesson unlearn with rangers from 4e.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I can get down with most of that.

I, personally, as far as 5e is concerned, do think that a spell slot expense is, really, a minimum requirement for a 1 mile per level (or 6 miles! in favored terrain) esoteric radar. If you wanted to change it, narratively, to be a ritual (listening to the ground, studying the surroundings, sniffing the air for 10 minutes, whatever) instead of a spell slot, I could maybe see that. Make the expense a matter of time consumption...in this case, maybe limit it by your Perception bonus times per day...or per week...something. I mean, it is a massively powerful thing that gobsmacked me, from the moment of 5e's release, that it would be only a 3rd level feature.
I disagree, but I’d be willing to compromise here. A ritual seems fine to me.
Conversely, I think Land Stride and Vanish are both far too late in the character's development.
I agree, but we can only put so much in the first two tiers of play.
I would also insist on the favored enemy being linked othe favored terrain -particularly if we are heading down the rabbit hole to link "bonus always prepared terrain specific" spells to the class framework.
I don’t understand. Can you explain why it would be good to tie favored enemy to favored terrain and how you see that working?
I like them becoming, like way down the road, post 10th-12th level, better (i.e. higher level) ritualists than casters. They, after all, supposed to be "half casters."
Yeah agreed.
The story fluff on what a Bane is, I think can be opened up a bit to allow for some kind of poison, or just knowing the weak spots of your preferred enemies, or special instruction/particular technique from some mentor, and/or incorporating some natural magic into your blow (PF magus-like) to boost damage, et al...but leave that to the player, narratively, to decide the "how" their/this particular ranger achieves their bonus "Bane" damage.
I’m fine with that, but I’d prefer it to specifically be a thing that must be prepared, either way.
Those are some of my initial thoughts bouncing off your list/ideas.
Thanks!
 

GlassJaw

Hero
It absolutely should.
As has been discussed ad nauseum, the ranger is the only class that has abilities that simply don't function unless specific conditions that are solely in the hands of the DM are met.

It's poor design and WotC knows it since they've been moving away from it ever step of the way.
 

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