D&D General Ravenloft, horror, & safety tools...

[Bedrockgames]

It's okay to ask your friends for help. That's what friends do.

Look, i am not saying friends should be cruel to one another or tell one another to man up or something. But every friendship is different. Not all friends are friends you burden with this kind of thing. It depends on the kind of relationship you have with people. Some friends certainly this is the sort of thing you can burden them with. But not all friendships are the same, and not everyone at the table is always at that level of friendship with one another (and it is a burden so you it isn't always something you can just put on people). Besides what we are talking about is how much they ought to be adapting around you at the table. Again, if I have a good friend who is going through something, let's say he is getting divorced and that is causing him a lot of emotional distress. I may ease up on having relationship issues crop up in game if those cause him problems. At the same time, if I have a friend in my game who is clearly going through some traumatic stuff, and we are planning on playing call of Cthulhu, and they visibly can't handle it, I would probably recommend they skip the Cthulhu sessions. Part of my point here is you don't have to play in every session of every game. It is okay for people to run a game that isn't for you (whether that is because you don't like the genre, or because you have mental health issues that come up due to the material they are dealing with). I think with horror especially it is one of those genres that is best avoided if you are having issues (because sure you can check spiders off a list, but in all probability you are going to get uncomfortable at some point). And in the case of people with things like panic attacks, which I can at least speak to, I think it has a lot more to do with mood and tension. It is the overall darkness of the setting material you are dealing with that is likely to generate problems (I should note in my own case it wasn't game content that set me off, I was actually running the game----it was, I think just the stress of socializing and being the GM, and probably having a cup of coffee).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Again, safety tools are meant to help prevent mental health episodes at the table. That's the point of them. If your group knows that confined spaces will trigger a mental health episode, they damned well better avoid putting your character in a confined space. That's the point. If your group knows you have trouble with confined spaces and the DM puts your character in a confined space anyway...they're naughty words. You should game with better people.

I think knowingly doing something that you know is going to set someone off is not good, whether you are playing a game or not. That is part of normal "Don't be a D*ck" behavior. At the same time, I think most people who have claustrophobia (and I have experienced this getting MRIs on about three occasions), is it is really unlikely to be triggered by reading about it or playing it in a game. Again that would be a pretty extreme case. Put me in an MRI machine for five minutes (especially head first), I will probably start freaking out two minutes in. Put me in a game where someone buries my character alive, I won't bat an eye. Again, I think these tools lead to really simplistic thinking about how phobias and trauma work. Definitely there are those extreme cases where someone wouldn't even be able to read Poe because it would set them off, or being in a game where they are trapped in a small space would set them off. And in those instances, sure the group probably needs to have some kind of discussion about what to do (and I don't think you can say there is a black and white right answer to that problem: in some cases adapting to the player will be appropriate, in some they may need to leave the room during moments, or not participate in that particular game: for example if the whole concept of the campaign is a giant underground mega dungeon). But I don't think the checklists are really good for that. Instead they create the impression that the most extreme cases are the most normal cases, and I suspect a lot of people almost sensitive themselves to these triggers because it is socially expected. That is why I think it is bad for the gaming culture (not because we shouldn't be sensitive or shouldn't help people, but because it seems to be changing behavior in negative ways)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This is the dawning of the Age of Susceptibility...

This thread is about gaming, a cooperative exercise in having fun, not the creation of art, writkng, etc., and how they interact with overblown concerns about “cancel culture” which isn’t even a thing.

Keep the apples in the apples threads, and the oranges in the oranges threads.

 

[overgeeked]

I already gave reasons. I can try to elaborate. You don't have to agree. Safety tools are not protection against a mental health episode.

No, they're not. And again, they're not meant to be. They're meant to help minimize mental health episodes triggered by the game itself. That's the entire point they exist. If you have a fear of spiders the checklist is there to signal to the DM not to put your character into a room full of spiders and describe that situation in minute detail.

Like I said I had bad PTSD. I actually had a panic attack during a game once and had to go to the emergency room. I had no idea what was going on at that time. No amount of trigger warnings would have been able to stop that panic attack. A panic attack like that can arise from anything (thinking bad thoughts, eating the wrong food, jogging the wrong memory, getting a weird feeling from the room). What is more, I shouldn't be putting that kind of thing on the other players at the table. That is something I need to be able to resolve on my own. If start setting parameters for my friends because of this problem, it damages the relationships, it forces them to behave in very uncomfortable ways and it doesn't help me at all.

Safety tools are meant to minimize triggers from the game itself. That's it. That's all they can do. They're not a cure all, nor are they billed as such. Your stance on safety tools seems to be coming from thinking they're something they're explicitly not. Safety tools are "hey, spiders really bother me"..."okay, no spiders"...not "now that we have this checklist everyone's going to be perfectly safe from any possible triggers forever". Have you actually read any safety tools? The actual tools themselves? It honestly doesn't seem like it.

And most phobias don't work this way either. Most people who have phobias can handle movies and mentions of the thing in question (for example spiders or heights). Having someone like me who is afraid of heights, climb a mountain isn't going to present any issues because phobias are a fear of the real thing, not a fear of the idea of the thing. Only in extreme cases will someone be set off by a movie or a mention.

Yeah, I'm aware.

But the problem with how this has changed the hobby is you would think extreme reactions to mentions of spiders, bad weather, etc are extremely prevalent. You see this on twitter and on livestreams where people use safety tools. Just about everyone in the room checks off a trigger.

It's called normalizing. Bring the conversation out of hushed whispers so people can feel easier about talking openly about these things if they want. The point is to show that mental health concerns are not isolated or solitary. To show that there's nothing wrong with talking about it or asking for help.

I think this is inviting a performative element to it. And that would be fine, except that is harmful to people who really have these issues

Sure. There will always performative displays. Nothing we can do to ever stop that.

(a good analogy is how people who are just refraining from gluten for dietary issues have actually made it more difficult for people who have celiac and gluten sensitivity because they make people who work at restaurants and serve foods more skeptical of requests for no gluten).

That's a terrible analogy. Skeptical waiters is not on the same spectrum as DMs being kind and removing problematic elements from the game.

And if someone is in rough enough shape that mentioning a spider creates a problem, that is a mental health issue to resolve outside of game. That doesn't mean be mean to the person. But we can't shape everything around the possibility that someone at the table has a very rare and extreme phobia.

Good thing that's not what we're talking about.

 

[DnD Warlord]

I'm with @Morrus , here. And @Professor Murder. And @overgeeked.

Yeah. Not every person has a Bucky Barnes style "Do not say these 11 words in a specific order and I'll be fine" trigger situation. And PTSD and other forms of mental or emotional discomfort can be triggered by things that aren't encapsulated in a consent sheet.

I don’t know if you did this on purpose or if it was a happy accident.
Bucky has been outed as a big NERD and most likely would love to sit down with some friends and try d&d. I bet he would have lots of fun at some con.

but imagine that he was fighting bad guys when all of a sudden the DM revealed “the real bad guy was a mind flyer useing these adventures you just killed as puppets “

he might have a WAY worse reaction to that then most of us...

 

[Steampunkette]

I think the big part of the disconnect, here, @Bedrockgames is that you're looking at "The Big Stuff" through a fairly specific lens.

Specifically that:

1) The players know each other and the situations they're going through.

This doesn't really work with Pick Up Games or DMs searching for new players to either fill out a group or start a specific campaign when they don't have an "In House" group of people they know. We also can't know about people's specific life situations in advance, like your example of a player going through a divorce, unless they specifically reference it.

2) That it will not prevent all mental health events and therefore is unneeded/extraneous.

Sure. Nothing can prevent all mental health events. It's not meant to. But as a way to outline specific issues that cause discomfort among the players (Including the DM) it gives us a way to avoid trampling over someone's comfort unintentionally, decreasing the odds of panic attacks or other episodes for people who do have extreme reactions. Sure it can't stop all of them, but less is better than many.

3) This applies primarily to severe mental health events like Panic Attacks.

Someone making a transphobic joke at the table isn't going to trigger me to have a panic attack. But it is going to make me very uncomfortable and isolated. It's going to be insulting to me as a person whether they intended it that way or not. These kind of tools allow people to steer around uncomfortable issues to ensure everyone at the table is comfortable so they can have fun. Not just avoiding episodes.

4) The players are physically in the same location to make reading body language/expressions easy.

Not everyone is so lucky as to have players who live nearby. A lot of us are relying on Discord and Roll20 or other programs/websites to play games. We can't look over at our friend visibly cringing as we describe something, stop, and correct our direction. But if we know in advance what is going to make him uncomfortable we can avoid doing the harm in the first place.

5) Players are okay with being cut out of the fun because someone else wants to do something they'd find hurtful.

Maybe at your table the players are comfortable being told "You'll have to leave the room for the next part" before the group does something that would normally be a part of their consent sheet. But that kind of action is pretty isolating and exclusionary. And depending on the game and players involved, that might mean asking one player to leave the room -very- often while not asking other players to leave the room... And that's just incredibly uncomfortable in concept.


As far as "Changing Behavior in Negative Ways" I don't think I understand your intention, there. Are you suggesting that certain uncomfortable subjects becoming "Taboo" within the gaming community is a bad thing? Or is there something about people "Becoming Sensitive" to uncomfortable subjects in there?

 

[tetrasodium]

I feel it is a mistake to define safety tools as existing only during play, when planning between players and GMs also act as such.

This is a really good point & I think that there's too much focus on the GM's responsibility in the matter to the point that the player(s) tends to look absolved of responsibility in the process. Talking about phobias and squicky areas is difficult because everyone is so different & they are so poorly understood so I'm going to throw out a more solidified example that actually happened between me and a player(lets call him Bob) during a session1 set mid last War. I told the group that the campaign was going to start in a town here on the map under siege by undead & that the players would start out level zero winding up being the ones heavily responsible for the fate of the town but that things would get dark. Everyone including bob thought it was a great idea & was into it... I went little girl in the red coat & used the siege to show some of eberron's monsters are people too races experiencing the worst moments of the worst day of their formerly happy lives to show them as people first. Bob kept looking for zombies & urging his reluctant level zero players to fire up the siege staff(pre-rising so it was like 1d8/player activating it in a huge cone iirc).

After the game Bob thanked me midweek for usually letting him find zombies because some of the dark was poking at his ptsd type memories & the fights helped him mash reset enough to keep enjoying things rather than linking sad moments in game with... heartwrenching moments e watched people in. Player said he was good & no need to change anything when I asked about it so things continued as planned the next session. That next session one of the other former military guys in the group kept checking on Bob/his character saying encouraging soldiery morale checky things. The party saved most of the refugees before going on to spend most of the campaign rebuilding & solving problems caused by the initial siege by going around killing things (as mot d&d games go).

The last time I bumped into him the player talked about how much fun it was & how it was good for his stress, I asked about the soldiery chatter. Player said that it was something he worked out with the other player because he thought making a big deal of it at the table or getting me to change the game would just make things worse so he setup something that solved it while making it better for everyone.

Long story short, a player having trouble is the only one who knows what will work for them & the other players can be a very effective part of that process just as the player doing something to look for action unrelated to the problem thing in order to shift the action to something else can be extremely effective safety net solutions that shouldn't be ignored by focusing on "the gm needs to..." stuff

 

[Bedrockgames]

That's a terrible analogy. Skeptical waiters is not on the same spectrum as DMs being kind and removing problematic elements from the game.

the analogy is about how people with vague, fairly minor issues, making a production about said issues, creates skepticism about those issues which is a problem for people who truly have those issues. I think it is actually a good comparison. My wife is a waitress and sees this all the time (and I used to work in food service). Most restaurants, at least on the east cost, where we live, tend not to take concerns about health issues like celiac seriously enough, because they get so many requests from people for whom it isn’t a real health problem (99 times out of a hundred they can give a person who says they have issues food that has been cross contaminated and there will be no issue): this makes things worse for the person for whom this is a real health issue. By the same token, I think you have a similar situation arising with mental health

 

[Bedrockgames]

It's called normalizing. Bring the conversation out of hushed whispers so people can feel easier about talking openly about these things if they want. The point is to show that mental health concerns are not isolated or solitary. To show that there's nothing wrong with talking about it or asking for help.

except it is having a big unintended effect: people without mental health issues seem to be adopting and self diagnosing these issues because it is socially expected, even socially rewarded. This is why I said you see this sort of thing playing out on social media and live streams. I just think a lot of people with no serious mental health problems are adopting triggers because it’s expected.

 

[Morrus]

Again, if I have a good friend who is going through something, let's say he is getting divorced and that is causing him a lot of emotional distress. I may ease up on having relationship issues crop up in game if those cause him problems. At the same time, if I have a friend in my game who is clearly going through some traumatic stuff, and we are planning on playing call of Cthulhu, and they visibly can't handle it, I would probably recommend they skip the Cthulhu sessions.

You just described some safety tools.