D&D General It's not a video game.

[overgeeked]

On a personal level, I agree. But that doesn't help deal with the situation when you run into it at a table. You have to acknowledge that the person who's doing it doesn't think it's lame and spoils the fun if you want to have a dialogue about it. And, IMNSHO, treating it as a matter of etiquette rather than badwrongfun is more likely to win them over to playing your way.

I don’t have time for coddling cheaters or trying to convince them not to cheat. If a player isn’t there to have fun and enjoy the ride, if they’re there to win or be adversarial to the DM and actively spoil the fun of everyone else at the table by playing like that, they can bounce.

 

[Oofta]

None of those seem to increase the space for player skill.

Not sure what that means. Player skill to me brings up memories of adversarial DMing which used to be a thing. If I wanted trap filled dungeons o' doom I wouldn't have much difficulty in 5E so maybe that's not what you meant?

If you're saying that D&D 5E can't be all things to all people, I agree. I was just responding to this notion that 5E can only be run on "easy" mode.

 

[iserith]

On a personal level, I agree. But that doesn't help deal with the situation when you run into it at a table. You have to acknowledge that the person who's doing it doesn't think it's lame and spoils the fun if you want to have a dialogue about it. And, IMNSHO, treating it as a matter of etiquette rather than badwrongfun is more likely to win them over to playing your way.

Yes, and if someone wants to spoil the surprise for themselves and not others, what's that to anyone else? Perhaps they enjoy the game for other reasons than being surprised.

As well, is someone who makes a choice to, for example, search behind the fireplace or the walls of a pit necessarily spoiling a surprise? It may not be a surprise for them that something may be there, but may be for others who don't have that knowledge. Besides, it's an action that someone without that knowledge can take. Would a player without the knowledge of the fireplace or the pit be spoiling a surprise by searching them?

 

[dave2008]

Yes, and if someone wants to spoil the surprise for themselves and not others, what's that to anyone else? Perhaps they enjoy the game for other reasons than being surprised.

As well, is someone who makes a choice to, for example, search behind the fireplace or the walls of a pit necessarily spoiling a surprise? It may not be a surprise for them that something may be there, but may be for others who don't have that knowledge. Besides, it's an action that someone without that knowledge can take. Would a player without the knowledge of the fireplace or the pit be spoiling a surprise by searching them?

Now I total want to run a game for a player who has read the adventure and then change all the loot locations, hidden doors etc.

 

[Oofta]

Now I total want to run a game for a player who has read the adventure and then change all the loot locations, hidden doors etc.

I do that with monsters all the time. Either give them a different description or just mix and match stuff so that they fix my vision. When someone says "that's not how it works" I just double check my sheet to make sure I didn't goof and say "Yep. Weird, huh."

 

[iserith]

Now I total want to run a game for a player who has read the adventure and then change all the loot locations, hidden doors etc.

Yeah in my experience you don't even have to do that... just warn them that you've changed "some stuff." Because they won't know what you did or did not change, they are right back to the same place as someone who didn't play or read the module already because the smart play is to take action to verify assumptions before acting on them. You might have changed nothing at all (though I don't condone lying, of course), but it would be foolish not to believe you did and act accordingly.

 

[overgeeked]

Yes, and if someone wants to spoil the surprise for themselves and not others, what's that to anyone else? Perhaps they enjoy the game for other reasons than being surprised.

As well, is someone who makes a choice to, for example, search behind the fireplace or the walls of a pit necessarily spoiling a surprise? It may not be a surprise for them that something may be there, but may be for others who don't have that knowledge. Besides, it's an action that someone without that knowledge can take. Would a player without the knowledge of the fireplace or the pit be spoiling a surprise by searching them?

Because it’s never limited to spoiling things just for themselves. It won’t take long before people realize what’s going on and it spoils everyone’s fun.

 

[billd91]

Yes, and if someone wants to spoil the surprise for themselves and not others, what's that to anyone else? Perhaps they enjoy the game for other reasons than being surprised.

[emphasis mine above] Well, that's the major issue, isn't it? If they can manage it without spoiling surprises for anyone else, then I don't have too much of a problem with it. But if a player isn't upfront about having experienced or read an adventure before with the DM for any reason other than a mistaken oversight or, worse, is reading it on the sly and hiding that from the DM, then I'm not that confident they'd very good at keeping their knowledge from spoiling the surprise of other players. Two separate things, I know, but if they're not playing in good faith in one area, they're probably not doing so in another.

 

[iserith]

Because it’s never limited to spoiling things just for themselves. It won’t take long before people realize what’s going on and it spoils everyone’s fun.

So is nobody else in the game making choices or taking actions? Just this one person who makes all the best choices? Nobody in the group would ever choose to search behind that fireplace or the walls of the pit? I play a lot and make a lot of good choices having never played or read a module because I'm not new at this game. Am I cheating?

 

[dave2008]

Yeah in my experience you don't even have to do that... just warn them that you've changed "some stuff." Because they won't know what you did or did not change, they are right back to the same place as someone who didn't play or read the module already because the smart play is to take action to verify assumptions before acting on them. You might have changed nothing at all (though I don't condone lying, of course), but it would be foolish not to believe you did and act accordingly.

No, I was being petty. I want to see the look on their face and hear their reaction when things aren't where they are "supposed" to be. I can't get that if I tell them I have changed things.