D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Ruin Explorer]

I am not talking about 5E. I don't play 5E. I am talking about the basic conceits of D&D being very easy to prep for. And just based on my own experience, it is a lot easier to prep for D&D I think than say a genre game (and I love genre games, but there is something about D&D that is easy to plan). Obviously though this is subjective. People are going to have different experiences. All I know is sitting down to prep stuff like maps and dungeons, those are pretty easy things for me to do. And there is something fun about getting genre to fit those conceits.

Generalizing about D&D when we could be talking about anything from OD&D to 2E to 3E to 4E to 5E, all of which operate in really distinct ways is pretty unhelpful here - it's generally a lot easier to insert stuff into something like an OSR game or retro-clone (including RC D&D and so on) than it is a tightly-designed modern game like 4E or 5E. And this is a thread designated 5E, not "D&D".

On the system front. I think there have been plenty of games that worked over the years but that is a whole other discussion. My point was it was very easy to get people to people to play games that weren't D&D before d20. Since then I have had a much harder time finding people willing to play a not-D&D game. Not impossible but it is a hurdle many GMs will consider when choosing a system

I haven't had this experience, personally. I felt like that was true for a while after 3E came in and the d20 thing went huge, but then it calmed down and now it's not hugely harder. Is it easier to find people for D&D? Only if it's 5E, really. I think you'll have a much easier time finding people for Monster of the Week, Blades in the Dark, or City of Mists, than a specific old-school edition of D&D. Maybe not people your age, but such is the RPGing life.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I haven't had this experience, personally. I felt like that was true for a while after 3E came in and the d20 thing went huge, but then it calmed down and now it's not hugely harder. Is it easier to find people for D&D? Only if it's 5E, really. I think you'll have a much easier time finding people for Monster of the Week, Blades in the Dark, or City of Mists, than a specific old-school edition of D&D. Maybe not people your age, but such is the RPGing life.

I definitely agree 5E is the easiest game to find people for. But if I want to run a retrocvlone, or run 2E or 3E, I can easily find a big group of players. If I want to run something like I normally run, I generally have a harder time getting people. YMMV. Maybe BitD, MotW have big followings too, and those are easy. I don't really play them, and I have a lot of trouble getting enthusiastic about blades the more I read it. But when I do try to run stuff off the beaten path (which for me would be games like dramasystem, Savage Worlds, TORG, Hong Kong Action Theatre!, Doctor Who, or even Numenera) I find it harder to get people (again not impossible just takes more time and effort).

I game with people ranging from 21 to 60 something. Generally though my gaming social circle leans older.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That may be, but I know a number of designers of supers games personally (its been kind of my jam for many years, though not as much these days) and I can say with certainty that degree of design consciousness is absolutely present in people like Steve Kenson, Chris Rutkowsky and Leonard Pimentel. So at least in the discussion at hand, I'm confident saying its well distributed among modern designers. I know they think about these things (how to balance game and genre issues), because I've seen them talk about them.

Yeah, my point is modern vs naive. HERO/Champions is ancient, largely naive design, only tweaked gradually to modernise it. Steve Kenson is a designer I think of as part of the whole modern thing. SAS, M&M and so on show clear attempts to move Supers towards a modern, genre-supporting design. M&M is a genuine example of working towards a market, given the d20 mechanic, which I suspect he'd rather not have used, but attempting to avoid as much of the d20 baggage as possible. And this is, for my money, modern design. Early-modern but modern, conscious stuff. Looking at his bibliography you can see even since the '90s he's been involved with games which take an increasingly conscious approach to design, and aren't merely "here's a system, how do I represent things in it".

I've seen at least one of the designers I mentioned say exactly that.

I'm sure that's true but that doesn't make it typical or common, and I think most of the times I can think of designers saying things like this it's been a matter of "we could use a better mechanic, but the audience is used to this one" and there's an underlying vibe of "and we don't think they're smart enough or daring enough to change", which I think at least in the modern era is underestimating the audience (I feel like it was at all times except during the d20 boom, but YMMV).

Its not the only place that's true, though; the amount of damage the high end strength does, things like how lifting and throwing are handled, the whole structure of the disadvantage system in general are signs of where it comes from. You can argue that its support of genre tends to focus on the concrete realities of the setting rather than the higher order genre conventions, and I'd agree, but even things like the assumptions that supers will have a higher Speed attribute than normal people are intended as genre supporting.

These are to me "inside-the-box" things that evolved from when it becomes obvious the system is failing at supporting something about the subject matter, rather than conscious design - i.e. reactionary corrections. Not sure what you mean re: disadvantage system though.

I think this assumes that everyone who wants the final result cares about things like what the flashback mechanic is representing though. I don't think that's at all a given.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Could you expand on this?

I have a lot of trouble getting enthusiastic about blades the more I read it.

You and me both lol.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Generalizing about D&D when we could be talking about anything from OD&D to 2E to 3E to 4E to 5E, all of which operate in really distinct ways is pretty unhelpful here - it's generally a lot easier to insert stuff into something like an OSR game or retro-clone (including RC D&D and so on) than it is a tightly-designed modern game like 4E or 5E. And this is a thread designated 5E, not "D&D".

Again, I am not talking about system here. I am talking about the elements of D&D (dungeons, monsters, encounters, exploration, classes, magic items, spells, etc). Across all editions, even ones I don't like like 4E, in terms of preparing adventures, I find it very easy and very easy to predict what I will need. I think there is just a lot in that arsenal that lends itself to easy adventure. On the other hand, genre games, especially on the more mundane side, you can't lean on things as much like lost relics or monsters tearing up the country side. Now that is a good thing, in that I often don't want adventures about that stuff. But it is a negative strictly in terms of doing prep work. This isn't necessarily limited to D&D either. It could really apply to any game that has D&D-isms in it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Again, I am not talking about system here. I am talking about the elements of D&D (dungeons, monsters, encounters, exploration, classes, magic items, spells, etc). Across all editions, even ones I don't like like 4E, in terms of preparing adventures, I find it very easy and very easy to predict what I will need. I think there is just a lot in that arsenal that lends itself to easy adventure. On the other hand, genre games, especially on the more mundane side, you can't lean on things as much like lost relics or monsters tearing up the country side. Now that is a good thing, in that I often don't want adventures about that stuff. But it is a negative strictly in terms of doing prep work. This isn't necessarily limited to D&D either. It could really apply to any game that has D&D-isms in it.

I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure this is as clear-cut as you think it is.

I started running other RPGs almost immediately after D&D, in like 1990 (AD&D 2E was 1989 for me), and I don't actually find it significantly harder to come up with what I need in terms of plot, place, people, concepts, drama and so on with other games than D&D. D&D actually is kind of demanding in that you need loot, you need maps (usually), you want a wide variety of monsters, enemy spellcasters are a severe PITA (as are spellbooks if they have them) and so on. I can make up SF adventures, particularly Star Wars-ish or cyberpunk-ish stuff very easily, like really really easily. Probably more easily than D&D. Likewise quite a wide selection of genres.

I don't find D&D-isms are universally helpful - I think they're actually a mixed bag, because some are more demanding than other genre stuff (again particularly loot/treasure/monsters/enemy magic/etc.). Overall because I know them really well it's not too bad, but I know from long experience that there easier things for me, personally, to do prep, than D&D, of any edition.

Superhero stuff is particularly a no-brainer if you have any pre-prepared villains. It writes itself, as they say. I literally can't think of anything easier to prep than Marvel FASERIP (excluding ultra-light improv games like "Roll for shoes" or whatever its called).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure this is as clear-cut as you think it is.

I started running other RPGs almost immediately after D&D, in like 1990 (AD&D 2E was 1989 for me), and I don't actually find it significantly harder to come up with what I need in terms of plot, place, people, concepts, drama and so on with other games than D&D. D&D actually is kind of demanding in that you need loot, you need maps (usually), you want a wide variety of monsters, enemy spellcasters are a severe PITA (as are spellbooks if they have them) and so on. I can make up SF adventures, particularly Star Wars-ish or cyberpunk-ish stuff very easily, like really really easily. Probably more easily than D&D. Likewise quite a wide selection of genres.

I don't find D&D-isms are universally helpful - I think they're actually a mixed bag, because some are more demanding than other genre stuff (again particularly loot/treasure/monsters/enemy magic/etc.). Overall because I know them really well it's not too bad, but I know from long experience that there easier things for me, personally, to do prep, than D&D, of any edition.

Superhero stuff is particularly a no-brainer if you have any pre-prepared villains. It writes itself, as they say. I literally can't think of anything easier to prep than Marvel FASERIP (excluding ultra-light improv games like "Roll for shoes" or whatever its called).

Some of this is just going to boil down to preference and ways of thinking. I started in 86 but really started GMing in 1989-90 with 2E. We played lots of different games though (TORG, Darksword, GURPS, Cthulhu, Runequest, etc). But while I don't have a problem coming up with adventure ideas for say a Goodfellas style campaign. I do find it much easier to reliably sit down and prep for a game of D&D (and I really haven't played much D&D for ages). And again, I probably run more Goodfellas style campaigns than D&D at this point. I don't think it is totally black and white though. A Goodfellas style campaign in some ways is easier out of the gate (I just need to come up with some crime organizations, families, and people, throw in tensions and conflicts, etc). But I am more limited in what I can draw on. For example I can't just mix things up by throwing a ghost at the party (whereas in games with D&Disms, I can). And that mixing things up, helps create a wider variety of experience. One potential downside you have to cope with when running genre is playings feeling like they have gorged on Spaghetti Western tropes and it all starts to feel the same. I am not saying you can't shake things up and can't craft very different kinds of stories, just I think it does take a little more thought because there are somewhat more narrow ingredients to draw from. Again YMMV. I just find, as big a fan I am of genre, when I try to talk to GMs about possibly running genre, this is possibly a reason that makes them want to stick with 5E (which is okay----I am not seeking to convert anyone, just show them something they might also enjoy).

Space adventures I have never been able to run very well. Which is odd because I read more science fiction than fantasy growing up. But I just find that hard in terms of gaming (though I am sure for some GMs sci-fi adventures just click and they have no issue). But for me, I have to take a long time getting ready for science fiction adventures (when I run even something as light as Doctor Who, I am so much more nervous in my prep than any other style). Though to be fair, Doctor Who does have plenty of D&Disms

 

[hawkeyefan]

What is the "lots" of support BitD offers? Again can you give a straight answer to this question?

EDIT: Just to be transparent I am curious in actually comparing and contrasting what BitD mechanics allow you to do in a heist vs. what D&D mechanics allow you to do... Right now it seems BitD allow for flashback sequences/no prep style... but in turn doesn't allow for elaborate planning and playing out of prep heists.

Do you mean how does Blades support "heists" (I dislike the term as it is one example of what I think we're really taking about, which is more like "capers" or "jobs" or "Scores, as the game calls them)? I can list some reasons, but wanted to make sure I understood what you were asking.

Also, planning is definitely possible to some extent....it's actually required, at least a little. But most GMs tend to allow a little bit of planning when appropriate. But the game does urge you to push toward the action rather than talking about the action. The main challenge to planning in the game, ultimately, is that the GM has not prepared everything ahead of time. The game just functions differently in that regard to how D&D is commonly played.

Super hyper detailed plans will push against that expectation. But some basic ideas aren't usually an obstacle.

 

[Imaro]

Do you mean how does Blades support "heists" (I dislike the term as it is one example of what I think we're really taking about, which is more like "capers" or "jobs" or "Scores, as the game calls them)? I can list some reasons, but wanted to make sure I understood what you were asking.

Yep this is what I am asking, I have just seen numerous posts about it supporting "heists" but no real details or specifics on how.

Also, planning is definitely possible to some extent....it's actually required, at least a little. But most GMs tend to allow a little bit of planning when appropriate. But the game does urge you to push toward the action rather than talking about the action. The main challenge to planning in the game, ultimately, is that the GM has not prepared everything ahead of time. The game just functions differently in that regard to how D&D is commonly played.

Super hyper detailed plans will push against that expectation. But some basic ideas aren't usually an obstacle.

I get this but I am speaking more in general terms as the game, at least from the little I do remember seems to be very much in the get to the actual caper vs detailing what came before camp.

 

[Manbearcat]

Yep this is what I am asking, I have just seen numerous posts about it supporting "heists" but no real details or specifics on how.


I get this but I am speaking more in general terms as the game, at least from the little I do remember seems to be very much in the get to the actual caper vs detailing what came before camp.

1) Propose a broad scenario.

2) Zoom in very tight with an example of a singular moment of action resolution within the conflict.

Give me those two things and I'll give you a specific example that intersects with your proposal (which should do the most work on illuminating how Blades tech/structure/ethos supports play).

 

[jmartkdr2]

For my own understanding: what exactly do people mean by "heists"?

The first thing that comes to mind for me is Ocean's 11 (Clooney version), and there's nothing I recall from that film that I can't model in DnD 5e. The hardest part would be the getting-the-crew-together sequence, because it's all showoff scenes which are hard to set up and let run since you kinda need them to be short and to the point. A lot of meta conceits for a DnD game.

Admittedly, this is one of the many places where 5e's lack of a good skill challenge system is a problem, but it's not an actual barrier to doing the thing - it just would be better with such a system. And it's not heist-specific by a long shot.

Now, if I were running that kind of adventure in 5e, I'd probably add in a flashback mechanic (so we don't spend a real-world month planning), and I'd need to add a way for the pc's to scout the location safely (ie they need an invitation to the duchess's birthday party to check out the duke's mansion before the actual raid). But those aren't impossible or even hard to do in 5e.