D&D General When did D&D gods first rely on their worshipers?

[Henadic Theologian]

No, not true. It is absolutely stated in pre-Avatar Trilogy materials that the gods need worship (1981's "Down-to-Earth Divinity" and the 1e FRCS, for example, both written long before Ao was invented). Similarly, later works such as Faiths & Avatars establish that gods would decline and die from lack of worship before the Time of Troubles, most famously in the case of Amaunator.

It is true that in the novel Waterdeep (the third book of the Avatar Trilogy), the speech Ao gives includes the declaration that he's imposing the need for worship as a new punishment for the gods. This is a continuity screw-up by the author and editors of that book, and should be ignored given the consistent evidence, both pre- and post-Avatar publication, that the worship reliance existed pre-ToT.

I was aware of the continuity issues at least partially, but its all trumped by the fact that Gods like Selune and Shar and others predate their worshippers by possiblity thousands or more years, they predate Toril.

 

[Parmandur]

He explicitly says it's from the Gnostic Heresy and says it's a universal across worlds the moment worshipers get up off their knees. He seems to believe he got it from somewhere else.

He may have gotten it from modern gnostic inspired groups, 19th century Occultists and such: not much to do with Classical Gnosticism, which is a whole other kettle of fish havign to do with anti-material Dualism.

 

[Don Durito]

He explicitly says it's from the Gnostic Heresy and says it's a universal across worlds the moment worshipers get up off their knees. He seems to believe he got it from somewhere else.

By 'made it up' I didn't mean he wasn't inspired by other things in his general reading or knowledge- I just meant that he probably didn't take it from any particular source elsewhere in fantasy or in D&D.

There is no reason why there should be a single point this idea entered into modern fantasy writing.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The origin and absolute reliance on worshippers is an approach that I'm not terribly fond of myself. I prefer the "default" Greyhawk option from 3e Deities & Demigods.

Basically, as I recall, they don't need worshippers for their existence or some minimal level of power, but in some way do benefit it. I also like the idea that gods (either individually or as a pantheon/world) can choose by how much to tie themselves to their worshippers to some extent.

Of course, Planescape goes full speed ahead on the idea that gods are fully dependent on worshippers, but Planescape is also fully into the idea that most things aren't clear and people choose what to believe. In my Planescape, it is still the most commonly held belief (based on deific corpses on the Astral, the propaganda (er, I mean 'account') of Aoskar and the "Definitely not a deity" Lady of Pain, and other evidence), but it may not actually be true. It's not like anyone has actually seen a god die from lack of worshippers, so order of causation has had to be inferred.

 

[Steampunkette]

I -vibrate- with the urge to explain the fullness of the Gnostic Heresies, but the banhammer would probably drop because while it's a matter of history, it's also obviously incredibly religious. I'll instead hit you with this much:

The Gnostics were Philosophers, rather than actual religious individuals. They tried to explain all of the things in the world based on philosophical understanding and greater learning. They even got close to what we'd consider the "Truth" in the theory of Monads. Essentially Atomic particles that are functionally indivisible, the smallest things that could exist.

When confronted by Religion, which they often were, they did their best to explain Deities in the same sort of terms, but specifically in the sense that belief in an idea, collective knowledge and focus, could be what makes it "True", inasmuch as anything could be considered true.

But they also had their own mythological figures, like Apollonius of Tyana. He was a guy from Cappodacia (Modern Turkey) who supposedly went around teaching Gnostic ideas and philosophies in the first century. He also Healed the Sick, Cast out Demons, and Returned from the Dead after the Romans killed him.

Sounds... familiar. There's even suggestions that they're the same person in history being viewed through two different storytellers!

(They also believed that Jesus was of God, but only Seemed to have a mortal form when he was, in fact, only a spirit. Docetism was a thing)

But yeah. The Gnostics were like "If gods exist it's because we believed them into existence".

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It's not like anyone has actually seen a god die from lack of worshippers, so order of causation has had to be inferred.

OK, that right there is a great thing to add to a planar campaign:

The player characters become aware that the planar villains they're battling have a mysterious source of power and materials, far beyond what they should have.

They eventually track the source back to Tartarus. They break into the complex, assuming it's some sort of infernal machine and, instead, it's a deity and their last worshipers, trapped in a divine prison, overseen by cruel scholars who are monitoring what happens to the god as they kill off the last of its worshipers. Not wanting to waste the opportunity, they've agreed to sell the byproducts from their experiment to the main group of villains, but their goals are entirely focused on deicide and applying what they've learned on a much, much bigger scale.

When the heroes presumably bust up the operation, not only do they deprive their original opponents of a potent source of power and resources, but they also have the gratitude of an incredibly weak deity, one who is only a handful of frail worshipers away from death.

Now the players have yet another antagonist group to deal with -- ones that are potentially far more dangerous than the first group -- and the incredibly complicated question of what to do with this practically helpless deity.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I -vibrate- with the urge to explain the fullness of the Gnostic Heresies

When confronted by Religion, which they often were, they did their best to explain Deities in the same sort of terms, but specifically in the sense that belief in an idea, collective knowledge and focus, could be what makes it "True", inasmuch as anything could be considered true.

But yeah. The Gnostics were like "If gods exist it's because we believed them into existence".

Thank you, this is a great and succinct explanation.

 

[Iry]

Actually its more complicated then that for Gods in FR. Worshippers we needed post ToT, but not before, as punishment by AO, but worshippers were not the only source of a Gods power in FR, just a needed one. Another would be the success of their "portifilio" we don't even know in 5e if Worshippers are still needed. FR Gods are not Theros' Gods, many FR Gods predate the world itself and mortal Toril races, and many exist on other worlds entirely. Again the whole needing worshipper then at least in FR was punishment to the Gods for Neglecting their faithful by AO. This blew up in AO's face and the Gods got too invovled in their worshippers lives, hence post Sundering restrictions on a Gods ability to get invovled in their worshippers lives.

The FR divinity situation feels like a satire on bad management, where AO is the VP, the gods are middle-management, etc.
Including the ToT firing gods and having to train up some new employees.

 

[see]

I was aware of the continuity issues at least partially, but its all trumped by the fact that Gods like Selune and Shar and others predate their worshippers by possiblity thousands or more years, they predate Toril.

Only if you assume "Sisters of Light and Darkness" is actual setting history rather than an accounting of an in-setting myth.

But even if there was a time long ago when the gods of Toril didn't depend on worship, that time was long gone well before the Time of Troubles. There are lots of Realms gods that were weakened or killed by lack of worship prior to the Time of Troubles (Auppenser, Garagos, Merrshaulk, Moander, the entire Yuir pantheon, etc.), and there's the Talona-Kiputytto battle in -33 DR where both goddesses sent plagues to Asram in order to try to get power from worship.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The FR divinity situation feels like a satire on bad management, where AO is the VP, the gods are middle-management, etc.
Including the ToT firing gods and having to train up some new employees.

That is a 100% improved way of handling their mythos: It's the Office.