But it had come up in Dragon at least once before that, in Ed Greenwood's "Down to Earth Divinity" in Dragon #54:
It's possible that he meant Stoicism rather than Gnosticism, since the Moralia includes an assertion similar to it. ("And we all know, the Stoics believe the same as we do concerning the Daemons, and that amongst the great company of Gods which are commonly believed, there is but one who is eternal and immortal; all the rest, having been born in time, shall end by death."; De Defectu Oraculorum section 19)I’m no expert on Gnosticism, but it definitely seems like a strange way to frame it to me...
Pratchett was working without the benefit of the World Wide Web in 1992, so he was essentially prisoner to whatever theologians he could get to answer his questions by phone.I’m no expert on Gnosticism, but it definitely seems like a strange way to frame it to me...
The classical notion is that there is a single entity who created the original deities, who in turn created others, who then (often several generations later) created mortal life. In this notion, while the deities get power from being worshipped, this adds to what power they already have, and they do not require it to exist, but will nevertheless stop existing in the fullness of time.I never got this line of logic because how did they come about to begin with? they could not have created any one thus aside from getting power why worship them?
I'm taking my second lap through the Discworld books, the first since Sir Terry died, and I've reached 1992's Small Gods, arguably his best work. (And it's pretty close to a must-read for players of clerics, paladins and the DMs that want to make religion a focus in a D&D universe.)
In the book, Pratchett lays out that gods -- other than a hypothetical but unseen creator god -- rely on the belief of worshipers to survive. Too few, and they dwindle in power, becoming disembodied spirits with only the loosest sense of identity, if they lose all their worshipers. In contrast, a god with a great deal of worshipers becomes ever more powerful, eventually becoming the focus of world-spanning religions and having all sorts of supernatural powers at their disposal.
This is also, of course, how gods in many D&D worlds work, including the Forgotten Realms, but the idea was present in multiple 2E books outside that setting, as I recall.
Where did this idea first originate? In Small Gods, Pratchett says this idea originated with the Gnostic Heresy, but a look at the (somewhat impenetrable) Wikipedia entry doesn't discuss the notion that belief empowers gods, at least not that I can see. Pratchett was familiar with roleplaying games -- the protagonists hear gigantic invisible dice rolling off in the distance multiple times in his first two Discworld novels -- so it's not impossible that he got the idea from a D&D book. But D&D authors are even more aware of Pratchett, and it seems like they would be more likely to get the idea from him, similar to how the tension between Law and Chaos comes from Moorcock.
Or is this all from a pre-existing source that both Pratchett and D&D authors took the idea from? Anyone know?
You need to read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.I never got this line of logic because how did they come about to begin with? they could not have created any one thus aside from getting power why worship them?
This kind of thing is why everyone wants to blow up Toril.Actually its more complicated then that for Gods in FR. Worshippers we needed post ToT, but not before, as punishment by AO, but worshippers were not the only source of a Gods power in FR, just a needed one. Another would be the success of their "portifilio" we don't even know in 5e if Worshippers are still needed. FR Gods are not Theros' Gods, many FR Gods predate the world itself and mortal Toril races, and many exist on other worlds entirely. Again the whole needing worshipper then at least in FR was punishment to the Gods for Neglecting their faithful by AO. This blew up in AO's face and the Gods got too invovled in their worshippers lives, hence post Sundering restrictions on a Gods ability to get invovled in their worshippers lives.