D&D 5E Do you use the Success w/ Complication Module in the DMG or Fail Forward in the Basic PDF

[Charlaquin]

Not sure it matters, but I’ll play along.

I’ll take that as a no, then.

How does what you describe lead to it being objectively true that the die roll represents what percentage of your skill and effort was put into play for a task?

It doesn’t, and that is not my claim. Here’s my argument:

1. Under “one roll represents your best effort” model, the result of the die roll determines whether or not your character’s best effort is enough to succeed at the task, given the current circumstances.

2. A 2 is objectively not the highest result you can achieve on a d20 roll.

3. Therefore, if you roll a 2, “your character’s best effort given the current situation” could have been better, since objectively you could have rolled a higher result, which would then have represented “your character’s best effort in the current situation.”

Now, whether or not this bothers you is absolutely subjective. I assume people who don’t have a problem with this model aren’t concerned with what could have been rolled. That’s fine, I’m not saying they’re wrong for thinking that way. Personally, I cannot look past it. I could have rolled better, therefore “my character’s best effort” could have been better.

 

[Charlaquin]

To me that method doesn't really make sense. Let's take a PC with +0 to athletics trying to climb a wall.

Player: "Rolled a 5! Only tried 25%. I guess I have to try again. Eww, rolled a 3 that time. Only tried 15%. Didn't even put as much effort into climbing the wall as the first time. I really need to get over this thing. I got a 10! Putting out a 50% effort now! Still didn't make it over, though. Yay! Got a 20! Only took me 4 tries to put in a real effort to get over the wall I really needed to get over."

People don't make attempts like that. They may not make it over the wall the first time, but they are going to be trying at or near their best each time if they need to get over the wall.

Seems weird to quote @doctorbadwolf in this comment, since they use the “one roll represents your best effort” model, in which a scenario like this wouldn’t be possible.

Under the way I run it, in which retries are possible only if there is a cost or consequence for failure (and success is narrated without a roll if there isn’t ), the number on the die doesn’t represent the percent of your character’s effort they put in. It’s simply the percent chance that you’ll avoid the consequences of failure. I tell the player the DC, which models the character’s assessment of the difficulty of the task and their own ability. The roll of the die represents the possibility that they misjudged one or both of those factors.

 

[iserith]

The issues at play here with the "one and done" rolls are essentially (1) it's the players choice if they want to have their character retry a task at which the character failed and (2) there needs to be a reason in the fiction why the same approach tried again is ruled by the DM as an automatic failure.

As the rule says, if the only real cost is the time it takes, then with enough attempts, the character should succeed at the task. The PC can't turn an impossible task into a successful one and, in some cases, a failed check means that approach is shut down. The example of using the same lie twice on the same person is offered to illustrate this - that is grounded in the fiction. "You can't succeed by trying again because I said so," is probably not very satisfying to some players because it does not meet the criteria under (2) above.

 

[Maxperson]

Seems weird to quote @doctorbadwolf in this comment, since they use the “one roll represents your best effort” model, in which a scenario like this wouldn’t be possible.

Under the way I run it, in which retries are possible only if there is a cost or consequence for failure (and success is narrated without a roll if there isn’t ), the number on the die doesn’t represent the percent of your character’s effort they put in. It’s simply the percent chance that you’ll avoid the consequences of failure. I tell the player the DC, which models the character’s assessment of the difficulty of the task and their own ability. The roll of the die represents the possibility that they misjudged one or both of those factors.

I quoted him out of agreement. And I used climbing for a reason. There's always a meaningful consequence for failure when you climb, because falling is a possibility and that does damage, eating resources.

 

[iserith]

I quoted him out of agreement. And I used climbing for a reason. There's always a meaningful consequence for failure when you climb, because falling is a possibility and that does damage, eating resources.

Notably, there isn't always a chance for failure when climbing since it's just a factor of speed in D&D 5e (short of there being some condition that makes the climb risky). The DM would have to establish this. As well, falling isn't necessarily an outcome of failure. That is one choice, but it's not laid down in the rules as the only result of failure. Progress combined with a setback might mean, in context, that you get to wherever you're climbing to, but are exhausted as a result or didn't get there in time to catch the bandits, or whatever.

 

[Maxperson]

I’ll take that as a no, then.

It doesn’t, and that is not my claim. Here’s my argument:

1. Under “one roll represents your best effort” model, the result of the die roll determines whether or not your character’s best effort is enough to succeed at the task, given the current circumstances.

2. A 2 is objectively not the highest result you can achieve on a d20 roll.

3. Therefore, if you roll a 2, “your character’s best effort given the current situation” could have been better, since objectively you could have rolled a higher result, which would then have represented “your character’s best effort in the current situation.”

Now, whether or not this bothers you is absolutely subjective. I assume people who don’t have a problem with this model aren’t concerned with what could have been rolled. That’s fine, I’m not saying they’re wrong for thinking that way. Personally, I cannot look past it. I could have rolled better, therefore “my character’s best effort” could have been better.

Number 3 doesn't mesh, though, with the “one roll represents your best effort” method. Under the “one roll represents your best effort” method it's really...

1. Under “one roll represents your best effort” model, the result of the die roll determines whether or not your character’s best effort is enough to succeed at the task, given the current circumstances.

2. A 2 is objectively not the highest result you can achieve on a d20 roll, but it doesn't matter since the number has nothing to do with whether the effort is best or not.

3. Therefore, if you roll a 2, “your character’s best effort given the current situation” could not have been better, since objectively you could have rolled a higher result, which would then have represented “your character’s best effort in the current situation.” only if it had been rolled the first time.

 

[Maxperson]

Notably, there isn't always a chance for failure when climbing since it's just a factor of speed in D&D 5e (short of there being some condition that makes the climb risky). The DM would have to establish this. As well, falling isn't necessarily an outcome of failure. That is one choice, but it's not laid down in the rules as the only result of failure. Progress combined with a setback might mean, in context, that you get to wherever you're climbing to, but are exhausted as a result or didn't get there in time to catch the bandits, or whatever.

If a roll is being required, we can assume the wall is difficult enough to require the roll.

And yes, if you are using the success with a setback optional rule, you can use that. I'm not assuming optional rules, though. The standard for failure in my experience is no progress(if a small failure) or falling(typically if you fail by 3-5 or more, depending on the DM).

 

[iserith]

If a roll is being required, we can assume the wall is difficult enough to require the roll.

And yes, if you are using the success with a setback optional rule, you can use that. I'm not assuming optional rules, though. The standard for failure in my experience is no progress(if a small failure) or falling(typically if you fail by 3-5 or more, depending on the DM).

Assuming anything in these discussions is risky.

And to be clear, "progress combined with a setback" is in the Basic Rules and not presented as optional or variant. The DM chooses between narrating failure or progress combined with a setback on a failed check. You could never choose the latter, of course, but it's not optional in the same sense that multiclassing, feats, encumbrance, or 1 week long rests are optional.

 

[Maxperson]

Assuming anything in these discussions is risky.

And to be clear, "progress combined with a setback" is in the Basic Rules and not presented as optional or variant. The DM chooses between narrating failure or progress combined with a setback on a failed check. You could never choose the latter, of course, but it's not optional in the same sense that multiclassing, feats, encumbrance, or 1 week long rests are optional.

At this point I doubt that most of those who play the game have even seen the basic rules. In the non-basic version, it's also not presented as an optional rule, but it is presented as something the DM can do if the failure is by 1 or 2, so if the failure is by 3 or more, success with a setback is not RAW, leaving falling as a meaningful consequence.

 

[iserith]

At this point I doubt that most of those who play the game have even seen the basic rules. In the non-basic version, it's also not presented as an optional rule, but it is presented as something the DM can do if the failure is by 1 or 2, so if the failure is by 3 or more, success with a setback is not RAW, leaving falling as a meaningful consequence.

You seem to be referring to "Success at a Cost" which is in the DMG. I'm referring to "progress combined with a setback" which is in the Basic Rules and PHB under "Ability Checks."