CapnZapp
Legend
On the other hand, that can (and probably should) be read as "do try out starting the module in media res" and not "stop any and all attempts at role-playing now and throughout all ten levels".
Pathfinder 2E Looks like I will be running a PF2e game in a few weeks...suggestions?
- Thread starter GreyLord
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CapnZapp
Legend
Look.
This is the fifth decade of adventure content that I've witnessed prompting exactly the same complaint regarding lack of story and motivation. (And no, I'm not counting the seventies, that would have been a sixth decade)
What I will never understand is when y'all stick to dungeons and dragony products despite it being blindingly obvious the average push for story is lower than in other games. Literary talent just isn't something you need to be hired by Paizo. Being able to crunch monster stats, and come up with a truckload of different ways to shish a kebab (=the heroes) on the other hand...
(Sure, Traveller has far drearier and drier scenarios that make Abomination Vaults look like Shakespeare, but I digress)
D&D and Pathfinder is 90% about combat. Sure you can write your own material that is 10% about combat, but if you want prewritten supplements that focuses on story or character development, D&D-ish games just isn't where you will find it.
Sorry for ranting, but obviously each new generation of role-players needs to find this out as if it was something new...
This is the fifth decade of adventure content that I've witnessed prompting exactly the same complaint regarding lack of story and motivation. (And no, I'm not counting the seventies, that would have been a sixth decade)
What I will never understand is when y'all stick to dungeons and dragony products despite it being blindingly obvious the average push for story is lower than in other games. Literary talent just isn't something you need to be hired by Paizo. Being able to crunch monster stats, and come up with a truckload of different ways to shish a kebab (=the heroes) on the other hand...
(Sure, Traveller has far drearier and drier scenarios that make Abomination Vaults look like Shakespeare, but I digress)
D&D and Pathfinder is 90% about combat. Sure you can write your own material that is 10% about combat, but if you want prewritten supplements that focuses on story or character development, D&D-ish games just isn't where you will find it.
Sorry for ranting, but obviously each new generation of role-players needs to find this out as if it was something new...
The-Magic-Sword
Small Ball Archmage
The book gives a lot of information for if you want a roleplay heavier experience, but doesn't require it, I don't think Paizo has particularly bad writing, but then again I tend to think quality storytelling isn't something you can bottle in a book, its more something that happens around the right table by players that want it too-- something I've learned after a lot of being told they want more roleplaying and then refusing to take opportunities to do so.
As for what you said @Retreater I tend to think of no exploration as being linear sequences of rooms and encounters, without all that stuff you mentioned. Secrets you can uncover, alternate entrances and routes, with rewards tend to define the presence of exploration for me.
As for what you said @Retreater I tend to think of no exploration as being linear sequences of rooms and encounters, without all that stuff you mentioned. Secrets you can uncover, alternate entrances and routes, with rewards tend to define the presence of exploration for me.
Yes. That is exploration in a general sense for me as well. However, that's not the specific question that was asked, which was how well the AP accommodates the exploration mode of play subsystem for PF2, which it does not.
It is also, sadly, presented in a way that can't be logically imparted to the party. Few friendly (or even neutral NPCs) or any way to explain why they are in the dungeon. It's all info dumps. So unless you want to have a floating ball following the party telling them why they should be exploring and what the motivations for the monsters are, you're on your own.
payn
Glory to Marik
I've seen this too. Paizo tries to break out of the hard coded dungeon combat mold, but often its not a strong enough attempt. Using recent pillar parlance, my preference is 40% Exploration, 35% Social, 25% Combat. To get that at the table requires a lot of work on my part. My long time group loves it because its not the typical dungeon crawl again again experience. Paizo gives me a great tool box in the APs, but they wont do it for you.
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CapnZapp
Legend
They might claim they have other aspirations, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground. Pathfinder 2 is all about combat as sport, and every AP to date offers a combat dungeon on the majority of levels. That you can do more with their product does not mean they get to say their product "supports" any of that. What they provide is a balanced combat engine and endless critters for you to mow down, and the buck stops there. What you then do with it is something else.
In this, Paizo is not alone. As I said, I've been in this game for a very long time. And every company likes to pretend their adventures are much more than meat grinders but with very few exceptions (at least in the D&D-y subgenre) that's exactly what they are.
Partly this is marketing speak to lure in customers, of course, but I wouldn't bet against the simple fact you probably don't become a games writer unless you're capable of dreaming - and rpg writers probably don't want to think about the disparity between what they want to create and what they actually commit to paper.
tl;dr: do or do not, there is no try.
So true. My mega-dungeon's NPCs have a power struggle. Two brothers warring against each other. The older brother falling to corruption and addiction. The younger brother being seen as a failure in the eyes of his father and betraying the family lineage. I get emotional writing it because it's a symbolic re-write of my family dynamics.
Of course, that level of emotion will never hit a reader or player going through the dungeon. But it's what keeps me passionate about the project and work through my own issues.
The-Magic-Sword
Small Ball Archmage
Damn that's some Grade-A cynicism, I think its probably more that they know that a big reason to play their game is the combat so they include plenty of it, and also know that they're giving enough information for the encounters to be run otherwise if that's what the party wants. Abomination Vaults in particular has an extensive Gazeteer on the nearby town and NPCs players and GMs can interact with, having read a good portion of the first book, it doesn't discourage you from engaging in those elements.
CapnZapp
Legend
FWIW, the original complaint (from FrozenNorth I believe) was that the adventure offers too little story or reason to be there (for the characters, not the players - the players are presumably motivated sufficiently by the opportunity to move their pawn on a battle board, decimating monsters and powering up...?). The town with its people were noted but only because they "don’t care enough" to clean out the dungeon themselves.
Just saying that what you call an "extensive gazetteer" is exactly what I'm talking about: what D&Ders perceive as "lots of story and personality" is, in actual fact, very meager pickings indeed. (Just because you bother to actually give the store keeper a name, and one secret that might or might not come up during the "investigation" of the dungeon - sorry gotta go
because what I mean here is "randomly stumble upon the single story point related to this NPC's "story" - does not mean there are any elements to "engage" with... at least, not if you want more out of "engagement" than effectively clicking the exclamation mark above the NPC's head.)When compared to other D&Dy material this product might well look nice and rich, I'll give it that. However, that sort of proves my point, and I suggest to Frozen he look elsewhere for the kind of storytelling he appears to be in search of, such as, I don't know, you should let Frozen explain, but maybe moral choices, decision points with no obviously best option, situations that challenge your ability to roleplay a character (rather than challenges the character's ability to roll well on a d20 check...)
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