D&D 5E Why do guns do so much damage?

[doctorbadwolf]

Still has all the same disadvantages of crossbows. Uses muscle power to load, thus tires out the user and making arrows is time consuming.

Perhaps, perhaps not. There’s no particular reason to assume as much.

 

[Umbran]

This truly isn't true. Bullets are rarely like stabbing someone.

So... this is many pages back, but... slow your roll there, and please pay more attention to the context of statements.

I was addressing a very specific scenario set by someone else - when the bullet does simply pass through, as with paper. IN THAT CASE the speed of the bullet is largely irrelevant, as most of it doesn't end up in the target. If you don't like that scenario, don't place it on me, I didn't posit it, I merely addressed it.

 

[Flamestrike]

Ah yes, the scenario where everyone is standing still and everyone just gets calmly into position before the scene starts.

Im ex Army, and I know the 21 foot rule well.

Im discussing a scenario where each combatant is competent and trained in their weapons to a military or LEO standard (non SF or SOG), and are standing at ready, in fighting positions appropriate for those weapons, with those weapons drawn.

"Bang' is going to happen before any swordsman can complete his thrust or cut, it's likely going to strike the swordsman in the chest, and pass through or near the heart or spine, or blow the swordsmans brains out rhe back of his skull.

Our swordsman doesn't have the same levels of hit certainty, his attack can (and likely will) be deflected by his opponents arm (causing a nasty defensive wound).

Things the gunman doesn't care about with his attack (unless hes shooting at Agent Smith or Neo).

 

[Umbran]

I’d rather just make all weapons do 1d10 damage.

That's not necessarily a bad idea. In the origins of D&D, they had all weapons doing 1d6, after all, so there's a precedent.

And heck there are games where the weapon is really a narrative element, and the effect a character has in a conflict is entirely from the character, their skills, and abilities.

For D&D, you could probably add a column or two to each class features chart, denoting what dice they use for each level. Maybe you can have three columns - Melee, Ranged, and Magic.... A barbarian gets great melee damage, and no magic damage to speak of. A wizard reverses that - great Magic damage, but poor Melee damage, and so on...

 

[Flamestrike]

That's about as equal of fighting positions as starting a race with him on the starting line and you at the finish line.

No its not 'unfair. We have both combatants in range of each other, with weapons ready, trained with those weapons and in appropriate fighting positions.

I know where my money is going on who wins, who backs down, and who dies.

Swordsman can't block or dodge my shot. His 'insta kill/ stop' vital areas (heart, spine and brain) are there for me to destroy with extreme prejudice.

A swordsman on the other hand has to deal with an opponent that can fight back. Who will grab his blade, block it with his arms, step inside the weapon and fight for his life (recieving multiple horrific defensive wounds in the process) before he can get a killing blow in (generally a thrust to the vitals).

Most edged weapon victims who die bleed out several minutes after the encounter, and suffer multiple (dozens in some cases) defensive wounds before a killing blow can be delivered.

Firearms just require a competent shooter to hit a vital organ. Presuming the shooter is trained, there is little the target can do to stop or delay it happening other than hope they miss.

You are seriously underestimating the lethality of firearms. They make it easy to hurl metal through someones head or heart in a way a swordsman could only dream of.

 

[Lucas Yew]

Whether 5E firearms are OP or UP, the big point I care about is that I'd like them included in the SRD for good ASAP, out of my old and fading first print DMG...

 

[Umbran]

No its not 'unfair. We have both combatants in range of each other, with weapons ready, trained with those weapons and in appropriate fighting positions.

So, this is like all those "Enterprise vs Star Destroyer" or "My Awesome Warlock Build vs ANYTHING" arguments, where each person chooses a starting situation to "prove" their impression is correct. Sure, if you get to choose the start, of course your preferred choice is going to win. If the other guy gets their choice, they can build a hypothetical in which the modern-armed soldier is killed by a lemur with a toothpick. It doesn't really prove anything. It isn't even convincing, because any single starting situation anyone posits is still only one situation.

Does anyone here not accept that getting shot in the gut is terribly harmful? Does anyone here not accept that getting run though the gut with a sword is terribly harmful? Can everyone accept that deadly weapons are, in fact, deadly?

Then let's set the ego-conflict inducing deadliness-sizing aside, and talk about game implementations, please? 'Cause that was actually the point of the thread. And I suspect further head-butting between the Bullets and Blades gangs will end in annoyance for everyone.

 

[Flamestrike]

So, this is like all those "Enterprise vs Star Destroyer" or "My Awesome Warlock Build vs ANYTHING" arguments, where each person chooses a starting situation to "prove" their impression is correct. Sure, if you get to choose the start, of course your preferred choice is going to win.

I'm taking about trained, armed and ready combatants, in fighting stances appropriate for their weapons.

It doesn't get much more situation neutral than that.

We've taken away the shooters range advantage by putting the swordsman in reach of the shooter. If the shooter has any advantage here, its that his gun is loaded. That's it.

Obviously, guns dont work unloaded, so in that scenario, points go to the swordsman.

The reality is, a trained swordsman cant get a reliable first lethal strike with a sword against an opponent fighting back and moving/ blocking the blade (and receiving horrible defensive cuts in the process). He will likely have to hack away at his opponent for several seconds, seeking to incapacitate him, before delivering a killing blow.

A trained gunman has no such problems. 'Blam' and whatever vital organ I hit (plus the ones neighboring it) are likely totally destroyed.

Dont, get me wrong, edged weapons are incredibly lethal. But they dont have the same stopping power of a firearm, and their lethality just doesnt match that of a firearm.

 

[Stalker0]

The reality is, a trained swordsman cant get a reliable first lethal strike with a sword against an opponent fighting back and moving/ blocking the blade (and receiving horrible defensive cuts in the process).

I'll just note here that this isn't a knife. What are you blocking the sword with? Its not "I get some defensive cuts" its "your arm is removed from your body".

And if your using the gun to parry, well that just plays into the swordmans game.

I'm not going to argue that modern fire arms are not more lethal than swords (and I really hope no one is really trying to make that argument....its really more about musket/early rifles)....but I do think people have this notion that blocking a sword is a trivial matter...its not even when your trained (and don't have an equivalent weapon)....but for a person trained in guns and not in swords....very very difficult.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'll just note here that this isn't a knife. What are you blocking the sword with? Its not "I get some defensive cuts" its "your arm is removed from your body".

And if your using the gun to parry, well that just plays into the swordmans game.

I'm not going to argue that modern fire arms are not more lethal than swords (and I really hope no one is really trying to make that argument....its really more about musket/early rifles)....but I do think people have this notion that blocking a sword is a trivial matter...its not even when your trained (and don't have an equivalent weapon)....but for a person trained in guns and not in swords....very very difficult.

Severing an arm with an edged weapon like a sword is extremely hard when the arm is capable of moving - generally you hit the bone (severing muscle and nerve) and the arm moves (possibly fracturing).