D&D General Bards & Sorcerers & Summoners & Warlocks & Witches & Wizards oh my!

[Cadence]

The Strixhaven thread has a lot of people voicing their differing opinions on the Warlock in particular. Expanding that a bit because I'm curious and thinking about it (and going beyond just 5e), what do you particularly like/miss/wish for in the variety of arcane spell caster types?

The spell casting details?
*Blaster, small, or big list to pick from
*Memorize each slot or spontaneous from your list
*Points and not slots
*Spells that expand by level use
*Metamagic feats

The non-spell and sub-class abilities?

The prime requisite used by the class?

The fluff?
*Memorizer specialist who doesn't have access to everything anyway (Wizard)
*Natural born (Sorcerer)
*Granted by a more powerful external power (Warlock or Witch)
*Gained in part by a summoned creature (like some later Jack Vance ones)
*Traveling scholar who randomly uses songs for some things (Bard)

Whether the spark to start learning spells starts things off or limits later?

Whether the martial classes can do it to?

Whether the spell lists differ between the arcanes, or from the non-arcanes?

 

[Cadence]

I'm pondering this for some world building, and keep bouncing between something traditional, and something wide open.

Is there any reason that each of trained, natural born, or pact powered couldn't have a reason to be a big list (close to 3.5 wizard) or small list (close to 3.5 sorcerer) caster? Do some sorcerer and warlock ideas work best with any of Int, Wis, or Chr as the prime-requisite?

If you go for flexible, what's the best way to present it? By power source, or how the spells are used? Any reason to not allow the ability scores to be sloshed around if it seems to make sense? Could one ability be used for number of spells and another for determining saves needed?

 

[Minigiant]

The fluff?
*Memorizer (Wizard)
*Natural born (Sorcerer)
*Granted by a more powerful external power (Warlock or Witch)
*Gained in part by a summoned creature (like some later Jack Vance ones)

Whether the spark to start learning spells starts things off or limits later?

Whether the martial classes can do it to?

I'll start it off with my preference of both casters and warriors being split into classes between the naturally talented, the studied master, and various versions of granted power.

I think wizards got better in story and mechanics as the sorcerer prodigy and warlocks empowered were pulled out of it. Attempts to fold it back just muddies it into confusing soft magic. I hope for the day when the fighter receives the same treatment as it would help clarify the ideas of it in the mind of the community into similar concepts.

If D&D is gonna be class based, Ogg, Professor Petronius, and Dark Zee should be different classes even if their enemies die of similar wounds.

 

[DammitVictor]

I have been thinking about the same thing myself, in relation to Spells & Magic, which has a spellpoint casting system which can be applied to 3-4 alternative spellcasting systems (each) for Mages and Priests. It also includes things like fixed (prepared) versus free magics, and different spell point costs based on the Minor/Major access for Priests.

So I kinda want to have the Arcanist (PF)/Wizard (5e) type Mage, who can free cast from their spellbook if they're willing to pay extra. (And can burn spells into their memory to always have them fixed/prepared, for proficiency slots.) Probably shoot for some kind of "focused specialist" system.

The default "priest" type magic is Warmage-style, where Priests cast all of their spells free-cast, but can take signature spells like Mages.

Take a page from Rolemaster and have Mentalists as "spellcasters", probably looking a lot like Sorcerers, and kinda like a cross between AD&D Monks and Spells & Magic Monks.

Bards would use the Mage rules, but their spell list is composed of a mish-mash of Mage and Priest-- think Song Mage + Druid.

Then there's... all the setting-specific stuff I could get into, the race-as-class stuff. Dragon Shamans. Shugenja, Sha'ir. Witches and Warlocks.

Beyond the varying degrees of fixed and free magic, there's also stuff for different kinds of costs and risks associated with magic, that I could attach different values to different classes.

 

[jgsugden]

I think 5E does a very good job.

Psionicist / Psychic Warrior (true Jedi type) are the only things I miss.

 

[Cadence]

One of the things that I keep stumbling over is how the magic classifies in terms of source/flavor/type/usefulness, etc... and that the English language is horrible at distinguishing because all of the words were used interchangeably for so long. I like @Minigiant 's thoughts above and go down that route a bit below.

Trying to separate them, I wonder if one main categorizations isn't Arcane/Divine from past editions, but rather:

• Incantation - the casting of spells and working of magic directly without individual intervention of a spirit/higher power - e.g. Wizards and Sorcerers.
• Invocation - the casting of spells and working of magic requires the intervention of a spirit/higher power for that individual spell - Cleric spells level 3+ in 1e. It feels like theurgy, some forms of witchcraft, maybe Vance's later wizards, and some implementations of shaman fall here.

Within the invocation part is how they began to get those spells:

• Training - anyone can do it (some Wizards; did Mouser just pick it up by being trained?)
• Spark - it takes a special gift to do it, like some Wizards (Harry Potter) or Sorcerers
• Imbued - the spark was lit by someone, like Necromancers in 5e

Is there any use going down this rabbit hole?

 

[Steampunkette]

One of the things that I keep falling back on is how the magic classifies in terms of source/flavor/type/usefulness, etc... and that the English language is horrible at distinguishing because all of the words were used interchangeably for so long.

Trying to separate them, I wonder if one main categorization is:

• Incantation - the casting of spells and working of magic directly without individual intervention of a spirit/higher power - e.g. Wizards and Sorcerers.
• Invocation - the casting of spells and working of magic requires the intervention of a spirit/higher power for that individual spell - Cleric spells level 3+ in 1e.

View attachment 138129

Within the invocation part is how they began to get those spells:

• Training - anyone can do it (some Wizards; did Mouser just pick it up by being trained?)
• Spark - it takes a special gift to do it, like some Wizards (Harry Potter) or Sorcerers
• Imbued - the spark was lit by someone, like Necromancers in 5e

Is there any use going down this rabbit hole?

I actually use 4 different kinds of Magic.

1) Arcane Magic. This is either learning or intuiting the nature of the universe and manipulating it.
2) Divine Magic. This is the Gods lending you some small measure of their Divine Essence which you use in prescribed ways.
3) Occult Magic. Ancient "True" Magic. Largely Representational in Nature, it touches on things mortals are not meant to know.
4) Primal Magic. The Elements, The Storm, Cycles of Life and Death, Manipulating them is a nexus between Divine, Arcane, and Occult Magics.

And then each magic has Sources.

Arcane Magic gets the Within and the Without. Without casters (Wizards, Eldritch Knights, Artificers, Arcane Tricksters) are using the magic of the world and rely on its presence. They're powerless in Dead Magic or Antimagic Zones. Within casters (Sorcerers, Magical Creatures) contain their own magic as a spark inside of themselves that can be passed down in families. They're only able to affect themselves in Antimagic or Dead Magic Zones.

Divine Magic gets the Gods and the Angels. The Gods provide divine power to Priests as reward for faith and belief so they can show the power of the Gods in the world. Angels empower Paladins who hold to strict oaths to enact change in the world. Any character with the Divine in them -tangibly- has godly power radiating outward. It cannot be hidden. Works normally in places of Dead Magic, but not if the blessing is withdrawn or your are beyond the reach of the Entity providing your power. (Also Churches and Temples literally have the feeling of the presence of the divine in them unless they've been defiled)

Occult Magic can come from The Gone, The Self, and The Unknown. The Gone are Vestiges, essentially remnants of what were, or could have been, people or Gods who still contain impressive amounts of power but lack enough "Self" to enact it. The Self is Monks, basically. Manipulating your own spiritual and emotional energies into magic. And the Unknown is dreams and the Vaktu Kai, ancient elder entities said to dwell in the darkness between stars. The Self and the Gone function on yourself in a Dead Magic zone, but the Unknown functions a lot like Divine Magic from a different, terrible, source.

Primal Magic comes from Animals, Plants, the Elements, the Storm, and the Reaping. Each is fairly self-explanatory, but the Reaping is specifically the process of death and rot.

Each one also has it's own version of Spell Components which have different rules.

Arcane Magic gets your standard V/S/M with optional Focus. It's the baseline.

Divine Magic gets Prayer (Audible no more than 10ft away), a Focus (Holy Symbol), and a Signal, which is a strong specific gesture related to your faith that everyone in the area can see. You cannot signal subtly.

Occult Magic gets Chanting (Clearly audible from 30ft away and in a monotone), Sacrifice (Effigies or symbols, mostly, but sometimes small animals or even your own Hit Dice), and a Focus. A symbol of your source that must be presented openly. Sometimes these focuses are worn, other times they're branded or tattooed into flesh.

Primal Magic makes Animal Calls or Nature Sounds (Audible from 60ft, usable in animal forms), Totems (Effigies or pieces of animals or plants), and Sacrifices (generally spell components but occasionally insects or small animals like lizards and mice. May include hit dice).

And then Psionics are their own separate but connected thing. It's a nonmagical supernatural power that some creatures can tap into thanks to the Five Fates.

Other fun note: There are no Arcane Necromancy or Divination Spells or Schools. Those typically go to the Occult spell lists and are often considered "Black Magics". Primal and Divine casters both get access to Divination spells, too, but it's not viewed as black magic in those cases.

 

[Steampunkette]

Oh, uh... Bards are Occultists in my system. But their magic specifically breaks the Chanting function by allowing them to sing or otherwise perform magic through music. Like Monks they use the Self. Specifically emotions and ideals as a power-source for their spellcasting abilities. Though more than a few bards touch on the Vestige of the Fiddler.

A musician in life, a bard of great power, the Fiddler was defeated and trapped within the Wasteland (Plane of Broken Things, where the Gods discard their failures and where mortal dreams and aspirations go to fade). Over time, the Fiddler's identity broke down through the power of the Wasteland to break beings and ideas and objects down to their most quintessential elements, but the Fiddler was not destroyed. Instead, the Fiddler became the Quintessence of Minstrel Bards and offers ancient musics and strange melodies to those who deal with the Fiddler.

 

[Cadence]

I actually use 4 different kinds of Magic.

1) Arcane Magic. This is either learning or intuiting the nature of the universe and manipulating it.
2) Divine Magic. This is the Gods lending you some small measure of their Divine Essence which you use in prescribed ways.
3) Occult Magic. Ancient "True" Magic. Largely Representational in Nature, it touches on things mortals are not meant to know.
4) Primal Magic. The Elements, The Storm, Cycles of Life and Death, Manipulating them is a nexus between Divine, Arcane, and Occult Magics.

And then each magic has Sources.

Arcane Magic gets the Within and the Without. Without casters (Wizards, Eldritch Knights, Artificers, Arcane Tricksters) are using the magic of the world and rely on its presence. They're powerless in Dead Magic or Antimagic Zones. Within casters (Sorcerers, Magical Creatures) contain their own magic as a spark inside of themselves that can be passed down in families. They're only able to affect themselves in Antimagic or Dead Magic Zones.

Divine Magic gets the Gods and the Angels. The Gods provide divine power to Priests as reward for faith and belief so they can show the power of the Gods in the world. Angels empower Paladins who hold to strict oaths to enact change in the world. Any character with the Divine in them -tangibly- has godly power radiating outward. It cannot be hidden. Works normally in places of Dead Magic, but not if the blessing is withdrawn or your are beyond the reach of the Entity providing your power. (Also Churches and Temples literally have the feeling of the presence of the divine in them unless they've been defiled)

Occult Magic can come from The Gone, The Self, and The Unknown. The Gone are Vestiges, essentially remnants of what were, or could have been, people or Gods who still contain impressive amounts of power but lack enough "Self" to enact it. The Self is Monks, basically. Manipulating your own spiritual and emotional energies into magic. And the Unknown is dreams and the Vaktu Kai, ancient elder entities said to dwell in the darkness between stars. The Self and the Gone function on yourself in a Dead Magic zone, but the Unknown functions a lot like Divine Magic from a different, terrible, source.

Primal Magic comes from Animals, Plants, the Elements, the Storm, and the Reaping. Each is fairly self-explanatory, but the Reaping is specifically the process of death and rot.

Each one also has it's own version of Spell Components which have different rules.

Arcane Magic gets your standard V/S/M with optional Focus. It's the baseline.

Divine Magic gets Prayer (Audible no more than 10ft away), a Focus (Holy Symbol), and a Signal, which is a strong specific gesture related to your faith that everyone in the area can see. You cannot signal subtly.

Occult Magic gets Chanting (Clearly audible from 30ft away and in a monotone), Sacrifice (Effigies or symbols, mostly, but sometimes small animals or even your own Hit Dice), and a Focus. A symbol of your source that must be presented openly. Sometimes these focuses are worn, other times they're branded or tattooed into flesh.

Primal Magic makes Animal Calls or Nature Sounds (Audible from 60ft, usable in animal forms), Totems (Effigies or pieces of animals or plants), and Sacrifices (generally spell components but occasionally insects or small animals like lizards and mice. May include hit dice).

And then Psionics are their own separate but connected thing. It's a nonmagical supernatural power that some creatures can tap into thanks to the Five Fates.

Other fun note: There are no Arcane Necromancy or Divination Spells or Schools. Those typically go to the Occult spell lists and are often considered "Black Magics". Primal and Divine casters both get access to Divination spells, too, but it's not viewed as black magic in those cases.

I love having the magic customized to the world and being consistent within it - and that all sounds great about making it tie together. (And there isn't a lot I like about 4e, but the idea of Primal Magic for nature, and it being a separate thing on the level with Arcane and Divine is one of them.

One of the problems I have now is when I design a world I want to do that and have some ideas, but then i think I should make it more general so I can use it later, and then I think of all of the options others might want... and I end up with imagining needing some monstrosity new game system that covers everything right out of the gate. I kind of wish there was a book just full of ideas and blurbs of history and language and examples of all of the different ways a magic system could be customized for a particular campaign world. And then I wonder if sometime in my second 40 years of D&D someone will come up with an AI where we can feed it the world description and it will auto-rejigger the classes and spell lists as a rough draft that it can help refine.

I'm thinking of a game that peters out with about 3rd level spells (so like E6 from 3.5 or P6 from PF), and what sort of cosmology I need and everything (prime material plane, combined feywild/shadow-realm/spirit realms touching it where they only ever see parts like in the fairy stories, and then in the great beyond there are theories of energy planes that the Gods use but no one will ever see those or the outer planes). So I've tentatively got...

Arcane flavored - Wizards (studied casters), Sorcerers (inborn casting), Witches/Warlocks (granted casting from a patron), and maybe Alchemists/Runecasters (imbuing a potion or rune with magic to be used later)

Divine - Clerics (channel one of the various elemental/fundamental planes and then limited spells)

Spirit - Shamans/Invokers (call over spirits from the spirit realm to do things)

Primal - Druids (magnify things that are already in the "natural world"; call lightning as opposed to lightning bolt, for example).

But then I get hung up on if it matters which ability score each keys off of, or if there is no big deal in letting there be a choice if it seems on theme. And then I wonder how bad cross-over is (should there be a sorcerous or witch flavored Wizard? should some studious clerics learn spells more generally instead of doing the combat thing?).

I suppose the trick is to finish all of my actual work each day, and then just jump in and start typing stuff up, while keeping a list of things to the side to be distracted with later.

 

[steeldragons]

One of the things that I keep stumbling over is how the magic classifies in terms of source/flavor/type/usefulness, etc... and that the English language is horrible at distinguishing because all of the words were used interchangeably for so long.

Trying to separate them, I wonder if one main categorizations isn't Arcane/Divine from past editions, but rather:

• Incantation - the casting of spells and working of magic directly without individual intervention of a spirit/higher power - e.g. Wizards and Sorcerers.
• Invocation - the casting of spells and working of magic requires the intervention of a spirit/higher power for that individual spell - Cleric spells level 3+ in 1e. It feels like theurgy, some forms of witchcraft, maybe Vance's later wizards, and some implementations of shaman fall here.

-snip-

Within the invocation part is how they began to get those spells:

• Training - anyone can do it (some Wizards; did Mouser just pick it up by being trained?)
• Spark - it takes a special gift to do it, like some Wizards (Harry Potter) or Sorcerers
• Imbued - the spark was lit by someone, like Necromancers in 5e

Is there any use going down this rabbit hole?

In my homebrew/houseruled game system (and setting) I make this exact distinction.

• Incantation: The casting of spells. The "magic words." The gestures/hand symbols, tracing glyphs in the air or whatnot, rubbing a rabbit's foot = "spell effect." The specific formulae. As you note, the inherent energies/power being harnessed by the magic-worker. It is, for the most part, the method of Arcane casters, though Druids use it too (and I'll get to that in a minute).
• Invocation: literally, the definition of the word, of "calling on/down." You have to have an "external" power/spirit/entity involved who you are appealing to (or begging, or demanding, or bargaining, or otherwise asking for). The magic/power is theirs. You're just, kinda, a conduit for it. The power belongs to the entity(-ties) and it is only by your connection to them -be that religious/spiritual devotion, a "faustian" pact, some "origin-story" connection, whatever something that puts you "in tune/on the frequency" of the "outer"/other power. So, clearly, Divine casters are the main users of this method. Clerics, being the default/"base" example. Paladins, Druids, but also D&D-style Warlocks and for my setting/game, Bards, as well.

The Arcane/Divine divide, for me, has always been something of an insufficient distinction. More because I think there is definitely an ignored divide between Divine and Nature/Natural [4e finally tried to make it a thing, apparently, called "Primal." But I never played 4e.].

So, beyond the pure "fluff" of there being separate kinds of magic, I think something the game has never done adequately is really given the different Magics, themselves, substantial and at least some meaningful mechanical divisions. I mean, diffrerent casters have different mechanics...but they tend to be in the "how you do spellcasting" ...while kind of "glossing over" the differences of the kinds of Magics they are actually working with. Now, granted, that is likely intentional so that different games/settings can "define"
those things for themselves...if they choose to bother doing so at all. So, I get that, but think that games (and settings) are only improved by having a bit more thought/definition put into the "in game/in universe" nature and/or origins, what the energies are/come from...the "metaphysics" or 'esoterics," if you will, of it all.

What those are, I think is a really creative part of the world-building that often goes unexamined.

In my homebrew, there are Divine (from the gods), Arcane (ambient to the cosmos/multiverse), and Nature Magic (ambient to the "natural/material world" includes the elements, life/death/rebirth). The Cleric (who works primarily via invocation), the Mage (who works primarily via incantation), and the Druid (who straddles both) are the primary casters, respectively. I also have a base Psychic Class that falls under the "Arcane" umbrella in that it is a personal/individual [mental energy/generated] powers.


There are other differentiations in casting mechanics and stuff, but the casters all feel