D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[Fanaelialae]

I mean, the fact that this mentality even exists is exactly why D&D, at least in the short term, is bad for the rest of the industry. You don't really see this issue with board games, and neither in video games aside from the most dedicated Skyrim modders.

D&D tends to be peoples' first TTRPG due to its already existing brand size; it's the first TTRPG most people would come across by word of mouth or by Internet searching. But it doesn't stop there. The game has an extremely strong brand identity, it has its own media ecosystem, and it has a dedicated fandom that in its current state is largely divorced from the rest of the TTRPG hobby. D&D isn't so much a gateway game as it is a trap; new players who come into TTRPGs through D&D are at risk of getting stuck there and never expanding their horizons, because both D&D's passive market dominance and active marketing efforts cultivate the false idea that "D&D is all you need", ranging from simple apathy towards other games, to active - and sometimes even belligerent brand loyalty. The dragon game swallows up and hoards all the players and resources; and the rest of the market, even the Tier 2 studios, are left to fight over scraps.

I disagree. This is like saying that Mario games prevent people from playing Dark Souls.

Sure, I'd bet that a lot more people have played a Mario game (Super Mario Bros, Mario Party, Mario Kart, Smash Bros) than a Souls game. That doesn't mean that Mario is hurting the appeal of Souls games. IMO, it means that Mario has a broader appeal than Souls games. People who would never try a video game if Souls-likes were all there is will have fun with a Mario game.

That doesn't mean that Mario is better. It just has broad appeal. There are plenty of very dedicated fans of Souls games. However, they'll likely never be as popular as Mario. The more people who play video games, however, the more people are likely to give a Souls like a try. Of that portion of players, some will love it, some will like it, and some will find it isn't their cup of tea.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I mean, the fact that this mentality even exists is exactly why D&D, at least in the short term, is bad for the rest of the industry. You don't really see this issue with board games, and neither in video games aside from the most dedicated Skyrim modders.

D&D tends to be peoples' first TTRPG due to its already existing brand size; it's the first TTRPG most people would come across by word of mouth or by Internet searching. But it doesn't stop there. The game has an extremely strong brand identity, it has its own media ecosystem, and it has a dedicated fandom that in its current state is largely divorced from the rest of the TTRPG hobby. D&D isn't so much a gateway game as it is a trap; new players who come into TTRPGs through D&D are at risk of getting stuck there and never expanding their horizons, because both D&D's passive market dominance and active marketing efforts cultivate the false idea that "D&D is all you need", ranging from simple apathy towards other games, to active - and sometimes even belligerent brand loyalty. The dragon game swallows up and hoards all the players and resources; and the rest of the market, even the Tier 2 studios, are left to fight over scraps.

Another thing I think we need to keep in consideration is that skilled play in board games and video games typically requires far less investment than in TTRPGs.

In the case of many board and card games, the rules are often simple enough that a newbie stands a realistic chance of winning their first game. And if not the first, then probably the second.

Similarly, nearly all modern video games have a tutorial that explains the concepts as you play. It's rare nowadays that you can make an uninformed choice early on that you seriously regret later. Personally speaking, when that type of thing does happen, it's a huge turn off. Realizing hours into a game that I messed something up and now have to either restart or live with it has caused me to quit playing a game more than once.

Contrast that with a typical TTRPG, where a player needs to read at least several chapters in a book in order to make informed decisions, and it becomes apparent that most TTRPGs have a high level of investment needed. Sure, you could just pick it up as you play, but your chances of making a ruinous choice go up dramatically if you do so. I certainly wouldn't want to play an RPG without being fully cognizant of the rules (apart from games that make this a conceit of their gameplay, like Paranoia).

That's not even looking at the time needed to make a character, much less additional investment like writing a background (which might involve learning the setting to some degree).

IMO, the reason that players are more likely to stick with a TTRPG than a board or video game is because the investment for skilled play in a TTRPG is significantly higher.

 

[Retreater]

So my observation about 5e is not that it's like Mario vs Dark Souls. You can play Super Mario Bros in maybe 30 minutes then go play Dark Souls. You can experience almost everything the original Super Mario has in an hour.
But 5e D&D is a play experience that can last months/years. It can take up a lot more hobby time that most players can't dedicate the time to learn new systems and play campaigns with them.

 

[Parmandur]

So my observation about 5e is not that it's like Mario vs Dark Souls. You can play Super Mario Bros in maybe 30 minutes then go play Dark Souls. You can experience almost everything the original Super Mario has in an hour.
But 5e D&D is a play experience that can last months/years. It can take up a lot more hobby time that most players can't dedicate the time to learn new systems and play campaigns with them.

You aren't correct in your assessment of Super Mario Bros. It can be played in one sitting, if you are good and know what you are doing, but it's a bit more than just the plsythrough. And once you get to SMB3 or SMW, things can actually get pretty intense. Can a five year old play Mario? Yes, and beat Mario and design Mario levels. But there are depths to be plumbed there.

 

[Mallus]

But 5e D&D is a play experience that can last months/years. It can take up a lot more hobby time that most players can't dedicate the time to learn new systems and play campaigns with them.

This was also true for OD&D, AD&D, 2e, and 3.0/3.5e (maybe 4e too? can’t remember).

And yet the hobby has always been more than just D&D.

 

[Disgruntled Hobbit]

Speaking from the experience of my groups, I just had two leave OSR games to return to 5e because of familiarity, a "middle ground" approach, and ease of finding resources (in person, online). They have resisted trying other systems (Cthulhu, Savage Worlds, Pathfinder 1 or 2), because 5e does everything they want it to do.
Do you think 5e is so successful that it actually takes away players from other systems?

I think of those games, the ones that will have the most success is Cthulhu
5th Ed does fantasy fine. Doing a fantasy game that is almost exactly like DnD but with ______ feels needless, when you can just ad ______ to DnD. And you already know the rules and own the books

I think the games that will do better in the long terms are games of a different genre. Where the _______ is spaceships or vampires or vampire spaceships. Where you can't easily add it to DnD without rewriting the whole game
Science fiction and fantasy, some horror, modern stuff, superheroes

 

[darjr]

No, in fact I think it’s helped 4e. Especially recently.

 

[Aging Bard]

I don't think it hurts other games, but for a different reason than has already been mentioned. I wonder if a lot of the new 5e players are not traditional hobbyist game players like the majority on this board (I assume). That they got into D&D not because it's the biggest TTRPG, but that they heard it's cool, their friends play it, and you get to be the hero of a fantastic story. If this is the case (and I do not know, just suspect), then it does hurt other games because these new players were never going to play other games to begin with. I certainly hope many new players catch the bug and branch out, but I wonder.

 

[Fanaelialae]

So my observation about 5e is not that it's like Mario vs Dark Souls. You can play Super Mario Bros in maybe 30 minutes then go play Dark Souls. You can experience almost everything the original Super Mario has in an hour.
But 5e D&D is a play experience that can last months/years. It can take up a lot more hobby time that most players can't dedicate the time to learn new systems and play campaigns with them.

I was referring to the broader appeal of Mario, not the level of investment.

You're right that a game like D&D is high investment. When we invest in something, we like to feel that we get the value for our investment. So, at least in the short term, a game like 5e will be "sticky".

However, at some point, most players will feel like they have gotten the value out of that investment. At that point, they might start looking for a game that better suits their interests, or simply quit. Or, if 5e really is their cup of tea, they might stick with that.

The point is that in the long run, some of the players that 5e pulled in will migrate to those other games. At least some of those players will have been people who wouldn't have originally been drawn in by those other games. Meaning, those other games will end up with net greater number of players than if 5e had never existed. Which is good for the hobby as a whole.

Maybe right now we are at a point where a larger percentage of the players that started with 5e are still getting their value out of 5e. However, that won't always be the case. And I seriously doubt that 5e is "stealing" players who would otherwise be playing these other games, so I don't think 5e is hurting them. At most, it might not be helping them much YET.

YMMV

 

[Parmandur]

I don't think it hurts other games, but for a different reason than has already been mentioned. I wonder if a lot of the new 5e players are not traditional hobbyist game players like the majority on this board (I assume). That they got into D&D not because it's the biggest TTRPG, but that they heard it's cool, their friends play it, and you get to be the hero of a fantastic story. If this is the case (and I do not know, just suspect), then it does hurt other games because these new players were never going to play other games to begin with. I certainly hope many new players catch the bug and branch out, but I wonder.

The new players are mostly teenagers and College students.