D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Mort]

no.

the implication is that if you want mundane martials and casters that really ‘feel magical‘ that magic will outdo martials. At that point balance has to be done via pacing and limited use resources.

Ok that mostly clears it up.

mythic in many ways can be more fantastic than superhero. So it really depends on what mythic you have in mind.

I just find it really odd that people expect martials to be mundane in anything after tier 2 or so play.

The kind of quests you're going on, the kind of challenges you are facing get more and more mythic so it's should be expected that the characters do too.

Sure you don't have to play that way. But if you don't, then your essentially repeating the same play experience you had in tiers 1 and 2; just with different trappings. And that, to me, seems limiting in addition to boring and mostly pointless.

 

[Mort]

A level 20 mundane character should be breaking every damn world record we can find! Run like Usain Bolt while fully geared out in plate armour, deadlift 1100 lbs without breaking a sweat, do a 15 feet standing long jump, hold their breath underwater for over 20 minutes while swimming and so on!

Do you know what's the heaviest a D&D character can deadlift on their own? 720 lbs, if they're a Barbarian with a 24 in STR. A fighter has a deadlift of 600. HALF the world record!

Yeah, it's crazy that a 20th level barbarian can't equal the 1,044 pound deadlift record!

A 20th level bear totem barbarian can manage 1,440 pounds - but arguably magic is involved.

I suppose you can say that the 720 is the "no effort" minimum version. A strength check of varying difficulty would allow one to exceed that depending on DC achieved (which means a raging bear totem barbarian would get pretty mythic) but that requires some creativity and a permissive DM.

 

[CleverNickName]

Very important to remember that not all players want to have suites of options all the time. I'm generally a "low-option" type of player because long lists of descriptions overwhelm and somewhat confuse me.

Waiting and watching constantly when Minor Illusion or Mage Hand or Invisibility is applicable detracts from the overall gameplay experience and I often feel decision paralysis when given too many options.

You aren't alone. Half my gaming group gets frustrated over having too many options...and the other half is frustrated because the first half takes too long. I don't know why the players feel like every action needs to be The Absolute Best Action Possible^TM every single round of every single battle, but they do. Boy do they ever. More options means more pressure, which translates to more frustration for all involved.

Sorry for the tangent, but does anyone know how to get their players to stop stressing about optimization? I know it can be done, plenty of people have written testimonies about it. But if there's a seminar out there called, "Optimization Sucks: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Game" or something, I really want to sign up.

 

[CleverNickName]

Hm, also I just came up with a quick and dirty fix for martials and spellcasters that's actually just obvious.

Rewrite rests so Short rest means "at the end of the scene" and Long rest means "at the end of the session". Puff! Everything is better.

This is...genius, actually.

 

[FrogReaver]

I agree with Longinus. Too many times you see people treat a level 20 Fighter as, at best, an Olympic Athlete (despite the fact that some olympic athletes seem to have better than 20s in their stats according to the math of the game). A level 20 Fighter isn't Hawkeye, he's Captain America, at the least!

Mundane characters constantly get hamstrung by limited notions of 'realism' that, quite frankly, often don't actually have any basis beyond gut feelings. That should stop at around level 10. I remember a message board in the 4e era with a guy insisting that horseback archery shouldn't be possible... which resulted in multiple people sharing videos of horseback archery competition.

A level 20 mundane character should be breaking every damn world record we can find! Run like Usain Bolt while fully geared out in plate armour, deadlift 1100 lbs without breaking a sweat, do a 15 feet standing long jump, hold their breath underwater for over 20 minutes while swimming and so on!

Do you know what's the heaviest a D&D character can deadlift on their own? 720 lbs, if they're a Barbarian with a 24 in STR. A fighter has a deadlift of 600. HALF the world record!

No one actually cares that a character can deadlift 600 or 1000 pounds. Even if they did make that 1000 it wouldnt fix a single issue anyone has ever had. All this is just a distraction from the real issues.

 

[Mort]

No one actually cares that a character can deadlift 600 or 1000 pounds. Even if they did make that 1000 it wouldnt fix a single issue anyone has ever had. All this is just a distraction from the real issues.

It drives home the issue that not only are martials stuck in the "must be mundane" camp but can't even achieve the top tier mundane feats.

And yes, I bet if characters that are supposed to be "beyond just strong" (20+ strength) could actually do stuff that was "beyond just strong" than that would be a step toward addressing some of the issues.

 

[Nefermandias]

Yeah, it's crazy that a 20th level barbarian can't equal the 1,044 pound deadlift record!

A 20th level bear totem barbarian can manage 1,440 pounds - but arguably magic is involved.

I suppose you can say that the 720 is the "no effort" minimum version. A strength check of varying difficulty would allow one to exceed that depending on DC achieved (which means a raging bear totem barbarian would get pretty mythic) but that requires some creativity and a permissive DM.

That's actually RAW. Exceeding the weight lift limit is one of the few examples the PHB gives for STR checks.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

No one actually cares that a character can deadlift 600 or 1000 pounds. Even if they did make that 1000 it wouldnt fix a single issue anyone has ever had. All this is just a distraction from the real issues.

It is quantifiable proof that the issues exist however, which is the context in which it is being used.

Its pretty rare that an issue can only be solved by being able to lift 600lbs by mundane means, particularly since there are several spells that will enable that.
It is however proof that the system does not allow heroes expected to hold their own alongside casters of level 9 spells to even be capable of physical feats performed be real-life people.

 

[Mort]

That's actually RAW. Exceeding the weight lift limit is one of the few examples the PHB gives for STR checks.

I was basing my "I suppose..." of that. And it's implied but I just took a quick look at the "using ability scores" section of the PHB (on D&D Beyond) and if it's explicitly in there, it's NOT obvious!

 

[Minigiant]

I feel like role emphasis was what helped the design of the 4e classes be more focused and more solid. It didn't need to be called out in the class description, but knowing what you're building for is way better than trying to cram every single idea that ever graced a class of the same name (looking at you, Monk...).

Role emphasis, even if minor, really helps players and DMs know exactly what a class is supposed to do.

Many hated being outright told what a class I'd designed to do. However the character itself often has a goal and set of priorities it places on itself. Rogues, thieves, and assassins are purposely trying to stay out the fray. It isnt an arbitrary role painted on them.

Reintroduction of roles could alleviate some of the pressure and problems seen or mentioned in this discussion.