Urban Fantasy general discussion thread

[Thomas Shey]

The website is still up and you can download the third edition. Home

I wonder where the writer went. Nowadays you can sell this stuff on drivethrurpg.

The premise is a little bit similar to Nephilim, too. Much more so than the other immortal games. Immortal games were pretty trendy in the 90s, weren’t they? I wonder they’re not made anymore. Adventures spanning the ages where you can meet or play historical figures seem really cool.

The third edition apparently came out in 2005, when DTRPG was really just getting its footing (it didn't merge with RPGNOW until 2006), so I'm guessing Ackles just decided that he wanted an updated version of his game (the second edition was published by someone else and he supposedly didn't like the result) and decided to just put it out there. I'm guessing it never made a huge amount of money the first time (the physical quality of the 1e book was pretty awful, over and above opinions about the illustrations).

That said, he must have tossed in the towel on the whole thing at one point, since the site has previews of material for a third book that never apparently happened.

 

[VelvetViolet]

That said, he must have tossed in the towel on the whole thing at one point, since the site has previews of material for a third book that never apparently happened.

Pity. I like the basic concept of immortal play.

Since there aren’t any at present that are still actively supported, I was thinking of doing some work for an immortals game myself. Basically a mashup of all the immortals concepts that have come before. Citizens of Atlantis, reality warping magic, inspired all myths and legends, organized into cliques, etc.

Does anyone have any advice you think I need?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Pity. I like the basic concept of immortal play.

Like I said, Immortal itself was not at the root a bad game; it had problems, but the biggest issues were ones of presentation and that at the time it screamed "I overdosed on the World of Darkness". There's been enough years since then I don't think anyone would have blinked at the WoD influence these days, but by now it may suffer from the fact a lot of people who want something roughly in that area might want something more narraitve in focus.

Since there aren’t any at present that are still actively supported, I was thinking of doing some work for an immortals game myself. Basically a mashup of all the immortals concepts that have come before. Citizens of Atlantis, reality warping magic, inspired all myths and legends, organized into cliques, etc.

Does anyone have any advice you think I need?

Be very careful not to fall into the trap a lot of adjacent games have of making the PCs look like players are so small that they seem insignificant; its easy to do with a setting conceit involving immortals.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Be very careful not to fall into the trap a lot of adjacent games have of making the PCs look like players are so small that they seem insignificant; its easy to do with a setting conceit involving immortals.

Good suggestion. I have a fix for that: PCs may be directly responsible for various historical events if desired. Maybe you dropped an apple on Isaac Newton, secretly fed abortifacients to Ann Boleyn, played muse to Lovecraft, or whatever.

The problem there is that you’d frontload character creation with all this historical baggage before getting into actual play, unless you start play in the ancient past and move across historical eras.

players are so small that they seem insignificant;

What is the PCs’ goal? Are they trying to be the most powerful at… whatever? I think the root of the problem here is building a setting so ridiculously convoluted that it’s basically author wank rather than a sandbox for play.

I’m not interested in that. If I was, then I’d write a novel. For a game setting, I’d design it according to what kind of play I want to support. In this case, making immortals extremely rare and powerful seems to be what supports the style of play you seem interested in. But I can’t read your mind. What do you want to play?

 

[aramis erak]

Atlantis is a pretty common theme of several 90s urban fantasy games. I've seen it mentioned prominently in Nephilim, WitchCraft, and some versions of Mage. What's the appeal?

Atlantis is a step closer to reality than is, say, Hyperborea, Greyhawk, or the Realms.

There are several others... the ones I have:

• Epiphany 1E
• Epiphany 2E (totally different mechanics)
• The Atlantian Trilogy (includes the bestiary and the world guide to go with The Arcanum 1e
• Arcanum 2E

Note that several other games have Atlantis as a place, but not the intended campaign setting... Such as....

• Mazes and Minotaurs
• Stargate SG-1
• Mazes & Minotaurs

Atlantis is one of the oldest myths still widely held to be plausible without being doctrinal in a major religion. The related Lemuria and Mu are less well known, but are usually linked, too, to the Atlantian myth.

The only things absolutely certain from the Greek mentions are that it's higher tech than Greece, not right next door, uses plenty of monumental stone architecture, is a sea power, and has concentric rings of semi-navigable canals. This means there is PLENTY of room to tailor it. Add Lemuria and Mu, plus Amazonia, and you have sword & sandals settings with lots of room. And as much magitech as you care to add.

The other beneficial element is that, if you put it in the middle of the Atlantic, or in a hollow world, you have the ability to give a historic feel, but without the issues of the real cultures being misrepresented in rules or play by being set "elsewhere or elsewhen."

 

[VelvetViolet]

Atlantis is a step closer to reality than is, say, Hyperborea, Greyhawk, or the Realms.

There are several others... the ones I have:

• Epiphany 1E
• Epiphany 2E (totally different mechanics)
• The Atlantian Trilogy (includes the bestiary and the world guide to go with The Arcanum 1e
• Arcanum 2E

Note that several other games have Atlantis as a place, but not the intended campaign setting... Such as....

• Mazes and Minotaurs
• Stargate SG-1
• Mazes & Minotaurs

Atlantis is one of the oldest myths still widely held to be plausible without being doctrinal in a major religion. The related Lemuria and Mu are less well known, but are usually linked, too, to the Atlantian myth.

The only things absolutely certain from the Greek mentions are that it's higher tech than Greece, not right next door, uses plenty of monumental stone architecture, is a sea power, and has concentric rings of semi-navigable canals. This means there is PLENTY of room to tailor it. Add Lemuria and Mu, plus Amazonia, and you have sword & sandals settings with lots of room. And as much magitech as you care to add.

The other beneficial element is that, if you put it in the middle of the Atlantic, or in a hollow world, you have the ability to give a historic feel, but without the issues of the real cultures being misrepresented in rules or play by being set "elsewhere or elsewhen."

Interesting. In my readings of these games, they pretty much have nothing to do with Plato’s writing beyond the idea of an ancient advanced civilization. In Nephilim, Atlantis was the continent of the old races where they engineered humanity. In Mage: The Awakening, it was the first and last civilization of mages before they broke reality. Etc.

• Mazes and Minotaurs
• Stargate SG-1
• Mazes & Minotaurs

You listed Mazes & Minotaurs twice.

 

[VelvetViolet]

So I'm noticing at least three broad trends in the design of urban fantasy and adjacent games. I'll refer to these as "shadow hunters", "modern occult conspiracy", and "supernatural soap opera".

Shadow hunters. Urban fantasy meets horror. Under this play style, the PCs investigate spooky paranormal events or even hunt monsters as their vocation. PCs are typically normal humans that may or may not be members of a larger organization, but some games offer options for psychic powers or being part-monster. This style goes back to at least the 80s and 90s with games like Chill, Call of Cthulhu, Nightbane, Necroscope, Dark•Matter, etc but continues into the present with reboots, retroclones, and new games like Monster of the Week and Hunter: The Vigil.

Modern occult conspiracy. Urban fantasy meets mystery and adventure. Under this play style, the PCs are involved in the conflicts between secret societies going back thru human history. The PCs are often paranormal investigators, modern wizards, or even immortals whose adventures inspired myths. Campaigns typically involve fighting for the fate of humanity or achieving mystical transcendence,. This style goes back to the 90s with games like Immortal: Invisible War, Legacy: War of Ages, Nephilim, and Mage, although many such games were supposedly developed during the 80s and demonstrate obvious influence from the Highlander movie.

Supernatural soap opera. Urban fantasy meets dark fantasy. Under this play style, the PCs are occultists, immortals, or some manner of supernatural predator that live a secret existence from the muggles. Campaigns typically focus on politics or melodramatic pursuits. This style goes back to at least the 90s with Nightlife, Vampire, The Everlasting, WitchCraft, etc and continues into the present with games like Monsterhearts, Urban Shadows, Liminal, etc.

These are very broad trends and many games often straddle multiple at once. Dark•Matter straddles shadow hunters and modern occult conspiracy. The Everlasting and WitchCraft straddles modern occult conspiracy and supernatural soap opera. Etc.

Has anybody else done analyses of the genres?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Good suggestion. I have a fix for that: PCs may be directly responsible for various historical events if desired. Maybe you dropped an apple on Isaac Newton, secretly fed abortifacients to Ann Boleyn, played muse to Lovecraft, or whatever.

The problem there is that you’d frontload character creation with all this historical baggage before getting into actual play, unless you start play in the ancient past and move across historical eras.

That helps, but it only gets you so far if it quickly becomes apparent that significant chunks of the immortal community are notably more powerful than you. Thats' where I'm not sold that I:TIW's setup was ideal.

What is the PCs’ goal? Are they trying to be the most powerful at… whatever? I think the root of the problem here is building a setting so ridiculously convoluted that it’s basically author wank rather than a sandbox for play.

I’m not interested in that. If I was, then I’d write a novel. For a game setting, I’d design it according to what kind of play I want to support. In this case, making immortals extremely rare and powerful seems to be what supports the style of play you seem interested in. But I can’t read your mind. What do you want to play?

You also have to deal with the question of "if immortals are really that rare, why are there a cluster of them working together here?"

 

[MGibster]

You listed Mazes & Minotaurs twice.

Sometimes you get twisted around in mazes and see the same thing twice.

 

[VelvetViolet]

That helps, but it only gets you so far if it quickly becomes apparent that significant chunks of the immortal community are notably more powerful than you. Thats' where I'm not sold that I:TIW's setup was ideal.

Then the problem is writing overpowered NPCs that the PCs cannot hope to oppose. We should not do that.

You also have to deal with the question of "if immortals are really that rare, why are there a cluster of them working together here?"

Maybe the PCs are just that special. It is their campaign, after all.