D&D General Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell

[pemerton]

This thread prompted me to read the 5e Grease spell. Here's the core effect of the spell:

When the grease appears, each creature standing in its area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone. A creature that enters the area or ends its turn there must also succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone.​

To me, this seems a microcosm of the issues with balance in contemporary, non-4e, D&D play.

The effect is of (roughly) equal utility at all levels - being prone is a debuff that costs movement to overcome, and there is no general tendency of higher-level NPCs/monsters to have immunity to the debuff (eg flying) nor to have more of the resource used to overcome it (ie movement rate). (The fact that the 5e movement penalty to stand from prone isn't as severe as in some other editions doesn't change the fact that it is a penalty that facilitates mobility-based tactics on the player side, as well as an immediate debuff against close combat attacks.)

But the cost - the expenditure of a 1st level spell slot - reduces dramatically with level, particularly given Arcane Recovery, and at the highest levels of play Spell Mastery. (This is the contrast with 4e - an encounter or daily power is an encounter or daily power, and there is no particular class build that reduces this to a negligible resource cost.)

It therefore seems to me that this ability is broken, and to be honest obviously so - given that other characters (especially rogues and fighters, who are notionally meant to be useful in fights) do not get similar AoE debuff abilities that become trivial in cost as level goes up. The only way in which this spell seems not just as broken as the 3E version is that it is save-based - and so that aspect may, though need not, scale with level on the defensive as well as attacking side (whereas in 3E it was skill-check based on an obscure skill (Balance) and so almost certainly didn't scale).

This may be a particularly pointed example, but I think it generalises to other effects that generate meaningful debuffs at an ever-reduced resource cost as the caster gains levels. And given this context, I really don't see how there can be caster/martial balance.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The only way in which this spell seems not just as broken as the 3E version is that it is save-based - and so that aspect may, though need not, scale with level on the defensive as well as attacking side (whereas in 3E it was skill-check based on an obscure skill (Balance) and so almost certainly didn't scale).

It's not even close to being as broken as in 3.X because prone is so different. In 3.X standing up took a move action, meaning you couldn't full round attack. It provoked an opportunity attack, meaning you took damage, It also left you with the bad choice of either (a) not using your standard action to attack or (b) remaining on the grease slick and possibly falling over again. In 3.X grease was an absolutely crippling debuff that both lead to significant damage and either took away an entire turn or meant that you suffered it round after round.

In 5e standing up takes only half your move, there's no such thing as a full round action, and it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks while you only provoke if you leave someone's zone of control rather than move around in it. Therefore everyone can stand up, walk out of the grease, and attack (unless some secondary crowd control like the Sentinel feat is in play). Grease therefore briefly slows people (situational especially against foes already in melee, but useful if you're trying to kite) and gives allies advantage on melee attacks against them (something that can be accomplished by the Aid Other action which doesn't offer a save).

The spell is the same but the effects of the prone condition are not. This turns a ridiculously OP 3.X spell into a very mediocre 5e spell that's frequently not as useful as a cantrip (if you want a kiting spell on open ground Ray of Frost is often at least as useful).

 

[Krachek]

Under the doom of Grease we fall!
DnD will no more be balanced and keep falling in loop.

 

[Asisreo]

The cost is not just your 1st-level slot, its also your action economy to cast it. Every action you take could have been a different action with wildly different consequences for your spells.

You could have done up to 4d10 damage through your cantrip. You could have casted Magic Missile. Or you could have casted your higher-level spells to ensure that the fight would be much shorter than it might otherwise be.

There's also the fact that there's so few creatures at high level that rely on regular ground movement to move. Its usually flight, burrowing, or some other form of movement. So its already pretty rare this spell will be too useful.

 

[FrogReaver]

This thread prompted me to read the 5e Grease spell. Here's the core effect of the spell:

When the grease appears, each creature standing in its area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone. A creature that enters the area or ends its turn there must also succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone.​

To me, this seems a microcosm of the issues with balance in contemporary, non-4e, D&D play.

The effect is of (roughly) equal utility at all levels - being prone is a debuff that costs movement to overcome, and there is no general tendency of higher-level NPCs/monsters to have immunity to the debuff (eg flying) nor to have more of the resource used to overcome it (ie movement rate). (The fact that the 5e movement penalty to stand from prone isn't as severe as in some other editions doesn't change the fact that it is a penalty that facilitates mobility-based tactics on the player side, as well as an immediate debuff against close combat attacks.)

But the cost - the expenditure of a 1st level spell slot - reduces dramatically with level, particularly given Arcane Recovery, and at the highest levels of play Spell Mastery. (This is the contrast with 4e - an encounter or daily power is an encounter or daily power, and there is no particular class build that reduces this to a negligible resource cost.)

It therefore seems to me that this ability is broken, and to be honest obviously so - given that other characters (especially rogues and fighters, who are notionally meant to be useful in fights) do not get similar AoE debuff abilities that become trivial in cost as level goes up. The only way in which this spell seems not just as broken as the 3E version is that it is save-based - and so that aspect may, though need not, scale with level on the defensive as well as attacking side (whereas in 3E it was skill-check based on an obscure skill (Balance) and so almost certainly didn't scale).

This may be a particularly pointed example, but I think it generalises to other effects that generate meaningful debuffs at an ever-reduced resource cost as the caster gains levels. And given this context, I really don't see how there can be caster/martial balance.

Martials can knock prone without even needing a resource. It just costs them a single attack (not attack action) on a turn to attempt it. Does that make martials more broken than grease?

Seriously though pemerton, this is probably some of the worst analysis I've seen you do - and all in service of trying to make a negative point about a game you don't even like. Makes it feel more like a hit piece than anything.

 

[jgsugden]

How often do high level PCs use grease?

That should tell you something.

This thread has been written hundreds of times on ENWORLD. I suggest going back to read prior threads about the balance between spellcasters and weapon users as those address the issue from all perspectives thoroughly. No resolution is reached because people tend to be stubborn, but we're just repeating ourselves here. There is nothing new to discuss.

 

[FrogReaver]

My second thought, I can't wait till he reads Entangle...

 

[TheSword]

As you level up battles tend to become more wider spread and being able to control a single 10’ square becomes less powerful. Enemies also usually have more methods of movement and can’t be bottle necked as easily.

There are also far more sources of advantage as you level up so the buff for attackers against prone foes is proportionally less powerful.

Now if grease could be upcast to increase the radius of the effect then that could be interesting.

 

[FrogReaver]

As you level up battles tend to become more wider spread and being able to control a single 10’ square becomes less powerful. Enemies also usually have more methods of movement and can’t be bottle necked as easily.

There are also far more sources of advantage as you level up so the buff for attackers against prone foes is proportionally less powerful.

Now if grease could be upcast to increase the radius of the effect then that could be interesting.

• Also enemies often get ranged attacks, rendering prone's movement slow quite a bit less powerful as they can simply stand up, move 15 ft out of it and still make ranged attacks.
• Prone on enemies also reduces your ranged attack effectiveness against those enemies.
• Shield and Absorb elements also requires 1st level slots and IME you will tend to use these more as you face higher level foes.

 

[FrogReaver]

Third thought,

I really think if we created wizard spells of some of what the fighter could do at will that those things would get called OP. It's almost like if you list something out as a spell, that makes it 10x stronger than if you list it out as something a martial can do. There's an instant difference in perception around such effects regardless of how strong they really are.