D&D General Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell

[Crimson Longinus]

This really makes me question the validity of the whole premise of the caster/martial complaint thread.

Grease, is OP? Sure, buddy...

 

[Vaalingrade]

Third thought,

I really think if we created wizard spells of some of what the fighter could do at will that those things would get called OP.

Let's see those three spells then.

 

[jgsugden]

Let's see those three spells then.

You're implying that all fighters can do is grapple, knock prone and push enemies? We already have spells that do all of these things.

However, fighters also get action surge. A 1st level spell that allows the spellcaster to cast 2 spells on the same turn? That would be called overpowered.

Second wind: A first level spell cast as a bonus action that heals a wizard for 1d10+class level? And can be cast when we cast other spells?

I've played all of the classes except artificer for prolonged periods covering at least through level 13, and usually above 17. THEY'RE ALL FUN. THEY'RE ALL (at least) EFFECTIVE. These threads are all ridiculous once you get a chance to play a diverse sample of 5E classes. You'll see this is usually just a bunch of people saying "the grass is greener" about something else, or people that have DMs that build/rule to favor certain situations, or people that just don't know the rules. Usually, but not always.

 

[el-remmen]

given that other characters (especially rogues and fighters, who are notionally meant to be useful in fights) do not get similar AoE debuff abilities that become trivial in cost as level goes up.

Why should every class have a way to do what every other class can do?

 

[Vaalingrade]

However, fighters also get action surge. A 1st level spell that allows the spellcaster to cast 2 spells on the same turn? That would be called overpowered.

That definitely has nothing to do with how spells as good and a basic attack is less so.

Second wind: A first level spell cast as a bonus action that heals a wizard for 1d10+class level? And can be cast when we cast other spells?

Once per encounter? Why and how would this be a problem? IMO, all healing should be a bonus action. It's a solution to the mythical 'whack a mole healing' thing that a lot of people try to solve by making the game more arduous.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This really makes me question the validity of the whole premise of the caster/martial complaint thread.

Grease, is OP? Sure, buddy...

It was in 3.X. It isn't in 5e.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

This is all very overblown - it's technically an AOE debuff, but the area is only a 2x2 block of squares, and the debuff is either a loss of movement speed or one round of being prone. At higher levels the spell slot cost is minor, but the action cost of a high level spellcaster using a round to cast this instead of something more effective (including 3-4D10 damage from a cantrip) is the real cost.

It's useful for slowing down enemies in a single dungeon corridor, if you get lucky on positioning you give any melee people a round with advantage on enemies that fail a save. But that's just not the amazing, unbalanced effect the OP is trying to paint it as.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Why should every class have a way to do what every other class can do?

That's fine ... if every class has their own things they can do.

At first level a wizard can cast Burning Hands while a fighter can swing a sword fast and hard against someone in arm's length. At 20th level the wizard can permanently turn themself into a dragon and breathe fire as often as they like ... while a fighter can swing a sword very fast and very hard against someone in arm's length. They don't even move any faster.

If the fighter were to be able to pull Cuchulain or Hercules style feats this would be very different.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

While I've seen Grease used to good effect, the premise of the thread is a bit overblown, and I wouldn't normally have posted. But the idea of fighter abilities converted into spells is kinda interesting, from a comparison standpoint.

The biggest problem is it's kinda hard to do so. Action Surge is the big offender, since it doesn't require an action or bonus action to use, and there is no spell that works like that. Yah, as a spell it would be extremely strong, but if it took, say, a bonus action to cast it would suddenly be much less powerful since it would only let you cast 2 cantrips on that turn.

Second Wind is a bit easier to compare, since it's a bonus action, self only healing effect. It would certainly be more powerful than False Life, a similar 1st level spell. In fact, in comparative amount of hit points gained, Second Wind at 20th level is somewhere in the ballpark of False Life upcasted to 5th/6th level. With better action economy and actual HP rather than bonus HP. It's still a bit wonky since spells shouldn't gain a scaling bonus like Second Wind does, but the comparison is much easier.

Finally, Indomitable would be awful as a spell. Fighters get it at 9th level, so I would assume it would be a 5th level spell that allows the recipient to reroll a single failed saving throw during the duration, then the spell would end. I don't see many spellcasters using it, even if it has no concentration. The upcasts would be granting 2 rerolls in a 7th level slot and 3 rerolls in a 9th level slot, which is incredibly weak. This is actually pretty good proof that Indomitable as written is a weak ability for the fighter to be getting at 9th level.

 

[FrogReaver]

Let's see those three spells then.

A level 11 fighter can attempt to prone an enemy and do 4d6 + 10 on hits at will.

Make that into a first or 2nd level spell and everyone would be saying how strong it is.

and heck. We haven’t even started with subclass abilities.