D&D General Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell

[Vaalingrade]

If grease is OP because it’s impactful and the wizard can use it so often then surely something more impactful than grease coupled with the fighter being able to use it all the time is even more OP, right?

Or is a prone effect only strong because it’s a Wizard doing it?

I'm not the OP, but I'm pretty sure you're missing the point.

The Wizard can spend a single action to AoE prone people at range. In theory, this is between 1-3 times a day.

The Fighter spends an attack to prone a single creature within reach that is no more than 1 size larger than you using a skill check instead of your primary attack mode where the target has a choice of two better defenses. In theory this is at will.

 

[jgsugden]

That definitely has nothing to do with how spells as good and a basic attack is less so.

You can't look myopically at elements in isolation when talking about the balance of the classes. Fighters have some strengths, wizards others. Fighters have some abilities that are limited use, wizards have other abilities that are limited use. Fighters have stronger damage

Once per encounter? Why and how would this be a problem? IMO, all healing should be a bonus action. It's a solution to the mythical 'whack a mole healing' thing that a lot of people try to solve by making the game more arduous.

If a wizard just heals themselves with a bonus action spell, it is problematic for several reasons. First, it muddies the identities of the classes. Second, from a balance perspective, a first level spell offering d10+lvl healing as a bonus action is extremely out of whack with spells like healing word.

The classes, as a whole, in 5E are well balanced - more so than people give them credit for being. People look at items in isolation, for the most part, when raising their complaints. In truth cohesively, they work. I've played all the classes except artificer for a substantial period of time, and enjoyed (and felt effective) with each PC. They all work.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Fighters have some abilities that are limited use,

Pathetically few.

wizards have other abilities that are limited use.

Lots and really good ones.

If a wizard just heals themselves with a bonus action spell, it is problematic for several reasons. First, it muddies the identities of the classes.

Something that IMO should be muddled. Most issues with class balance comes from this stupid concept of niche protection.

Second, from a balance perspective, a first level spell offering d10+lvl healing as a bonus action is extremely out of whack with spells like healing word.

Healing in general is pretty weaksauce, again IMO. I'd rather see Healing Word and other healing be made good.

The classes, as a whole, in 5E are well balanced - more so than people give them credit for being.

If those classes are Rogue, Bard, Warlock, Barbarian, some Monks and Paladin.

Wizards, as always since 3e, are the family favorite with Sorcs and Clerics being the runners up while Fighters are poisoned by the fanbase. Rangers are somehow worse than fighters this time around, which is a freaking miracle in and of itself.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

The point isn't that "Grease makes wizards better than fighters".

The point is that Grease is an example of wizard abilities scaling in ways that fighter abilities don't. And Grease is just one example.

Now, the real trick here is that if you look at the DMG monster building guidelines and actual T3/4 monsters, legendary resists, magic resistance and proficiency in saving throws gets extremely cheap at higher levels.

This means that in T3/T4 fights, creatures who ignore failed saves, creatures who have better saves, and creatures with auto-advantage on saves become increasingly common. Either that, or masses of lower CR creatures.

Masses of lower CR creatures make non-AOE disabling abilities less powerful. It does make AOE blasting (of damage or status effects) more powerful, up until they start spreading out due to either numbers or DM tactics.

Larger creatures also make AOEs less effective -- see any RTS -- because at default packing fewer creatures are in each area of effect. And higher level monsters tend to be larger, on average.

I just think Grease isn't the spell that should be the spearhead for if there are balance issues between martials and casters. There are frankly, much better examples.

Action Surge is a powerful effect. It is also a 2 level dip.

A problem for most 5e characters who aren't getting 6-9th level spells is that level 6-20 is often lackluster compared to level 1-5.

I agree that Action Surge is powerful. I've often considered it one of the more powerful single abilities in the game. But converting it into spell format is difficult in my opinion.

False Life isn't a very good spell and doesn't scale that well. Compare with Armor of Agathys, which is an ok spell, but really only if you can leverage it.

Second Wind starts out reasonably beefy; a 14 con level 1 fighter regains almost half of their HP, at a level where their HP are low. It proceeds to weaken with every level; by level 20 it is a bit more than 1/6th of their HP.

HP and temporary HP compare poorly. The typical use of False Life is to "pre buff" HP, while second wind you use to either do HD-free recovery or bring your HP up from a abyssal level. The action economy of second wind becomes increasingly crappy; unless you have nothing to do with your bonus action, it becomes a non-combat ability. False Life's action economy is much better, with an hour long duration you can burn the action out of combat to "pre-heal".

The 5e action economy means that using action resources to heal in combat is usually a bad idea, while using resources to pre-heal is much better. Even with this, false life's 5 HP/slot level scaling isn't enough to make it worth burning high level slots on.

Compare with Aid, which gives stacking max+current HP, lasts 8 hours instead of 1, and boosts 3 targets instead of just yourself, and also scales at 5 HP/slot level.

Comparing Second Wind to a bad spell doesn't tell you much. The character with false life has better options, the fighter is stuck with Second Wind.

False Life felt like the best comparative spell. Aid hits multiple people and Armor of Agathys has the damage component which makes the comparison more difficult. As for if False Life is a good spell, I never claimed it was. Simply that Second Wind, in terms of HP would restore roughly equal to the bonus HP granted by False Life if used in a 5th or 6th level slot. How favorably that makes Second Wind look I didn't actually comment on.

Yes. Making Indomitable be a legendary resistance (like the beta version was) is a no brainer.

I'd even upgrade it later; like, starting at 13th level, when you use it, until the end of your next turn you gain advantage on all saves and all attacks on you are at disadvantage.

An interesting idea to be sure. Indomitable almost certainly should have been better given it's long rest recharge and late level acquisition.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

I don’t think so. We are talking at will vs single use resource per day.

I assume you mean that the fighter's Extra Attack at 11th level shouldn't be equal to a wizard's acquisition of 6th level spells on the basis that it can be used at will rather than an expended resource? Feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted that.

My statement was that it's hard to compare abilities specifically because of the major differences between them, including the above. But it cuts both ways. A wizard's 6th level slot is way more versatile and can have a much larger effect than attacking. So yah, a fighter can attack 3 times per round all day, but how do we compare that to Mass Suggestion, True Seeing or Planar Ally? At best, we can look at damage outputs between said extra attacks and, say, disintegrate, but that doesn't really tell the whole story. It's why I think it's hard to compare specific abilities side by side between classes.

 

[FrogReaver]

I assume you mean that the fighter's Extra Attack at 11th level shouldn't be equal to a wizard's acquisition of 6th level spells on the basis that it can be used at will rather than an expended resource? Feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted that.

My statement was that it's hard to compare abilities specifically because of the major differences between them, including the above. But it cuts both ways. A wizard's 6th level slot is way more versatile and can have a much larger effect than attacking. So yah, a fighter can attack 3 times per round all day, but how do we compare that to Mass Suggestion, True Seeing or Planar Ally? At best, we can look at damage outputs between said extra attacks and, say, disintegrate, but that doesn't really tell the whole story. It's why I think it's hard to compare specific abilities side by side between classes.

That wasn’t my point at all.

my point remains that a wizard with a low level spell allowing him to do things the fighter can do at will would be considered a very strong low level spell.

a wizard with a tier 3 spell letting him output the single target damage of a highly optimized fighter that’s using resources would also be considered a good wizard spell. Maybe not top tier, but good.

the point being, most of the things the fighter can accomplish at will or per short rest would be considered good wizard spells.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

I guess I'm still a bit confused to be honest? I don't disagree with what you're saying I think, but I honestly am not sure where this conversation is going.

 

[jgsugden]

Pathetically few (limited fighter abilities).

Not true. Most of their abilities are limited to once per SR or once per LR scenarios. Second Wind, Action Surge, Subclass abilities, Indomitable, etc...

Lots and really good ones (are limited wizard ones).

Huh? Beyond subclass, they get one (arcane recovery) outside spells before level 18.

...Wizards, as always since 3e, are the family favorite with Sorcs and Clerics being the runners up while Fighters are poisoned by the fanbase. Rangers are somehow worse than fighters this time around, which is a freaking miracle in and of itself.

D&D Beyond has revealed the popularity of characters that show regular advancement. Wizards are 8% of characters. Clerics were 8%. Sorcerer was 7%. Warlock was 9%.

You're stating things as fact, but they're only your opinion and are contradicted by the best available information we have.

 

[MarkB]

So, the thing that a grease spell does is... create a patch of grease.

That's something that anyone can do if they have access to a general store and the strength to carry a few clay jugs. It's even something that becomes a more trivial cost as you gain levels because you'll have far more disposable income.

The only thing that won't scale for the martial characters is the save DC. And hey, maybe a generous DM might accommodate that too, by letting you purchase rarer and more slippery substances.

 

[Manbearcat]

No, it only costs 1/2 your move in 5e rather than a full move, but Grease is an absolutely devastating spell at endgame against (a) plodders (b with bad Dex saves and (c) multiattack melee that they rely upon for their bulk of their threat. Plop it down at a chokepoint or in an open area to kite against Dex-deficient + melee dependent personnel, save your Concentration, and do other stuff.

My least fond memory of the spell was running an encounter where the PCs were getting some McGuffin in a Far Realm alien ship’s cargo bay (I was running the dungeon script for this railroad of a game that I intermittently GMed for this kid’s dad who would often flake on them).

It was level 18 (3 PCs) vs a wave encounter of ATST-like walker tanks w/ pilot + infantry personnel inside (get in room and deploy infantry while pilots man the tanks). First wave was low HP (basically mooks) drone flyers to soften them up. There were still some stray drones left up on round 3 when the ATSTs came. They were reskinned Fire Giants exactly as above; (basically tanks) meh Move + bad Dex Save + melee multi attack 10 reach + a plinky single attack ray (like a Boulder) + a 5, 6 Recharge big gun.

The Wizard had Grease down on the bay door they were streaming through straightaway and the next round had a Grease in the room for the team to move from cover to cover to kite and kill any ATSTs that made it out of the kill-box.

This was supposed to be a mega deadly encounter according to the CR budget the guy had put out there. The clustereff that actually ensued was titanic. It was a Benny Hill theme of action denial of melee multiattack and kiting around the cargo bay. Once the ATST’s spent their 5/6 recharge big gun, they were typically routed with their damage output per round decimated compared to what would be ideally realized.

Once out of the Grease, spending Dash to try to run around the Grease in the Bay to get to a PC or falling back on the crappy at-will ranged is utterly punitive. Eventually I just had both the infantry AND pilots leave the ATST’s to try to engage because while squishy fodder, at least they had the move + higher Dex save and there were more of them so I figured Bounded Accuracy would somewhat save the encounter (it didn’t save it, but the Benny Hill theme was at least turned off).

This has to be something people have experienced at endgame against things like the various Giants, a horde of Ogres/Undead, Golems in ancient tombs, etc. any Brute-like plodder w/ poor Dex save where action denial of their melee multiattack (primary threat) nerfs them significantly. It’s particularly devastating against choke points and in areas where you can kite. Dex is the worst physical Save in the game for monsters (only attack Int or Wis instead). Dinos, Treants, Zombies, Dire Animals. There are tons of low dex, reliance upon melee creatures that are easily kites or can have their action economy wrecked by Grease.

I looked into alternatives after this fight. Even if the GM would have reskinned a Stone Golem rather than Giant it would have been even worse because Advanatage on Saves doesn’t make up for the awful (even worse) Dex save + no actual ranged ability at all. Strategically placed Grease against this kind of enemy personnel + a Team PC that can even marginally kite (I’m not talking kitted out for kiting…just capable) is devastating to an up tiered CR encounter at endgame.

After my feedback to the guy, he tailored all future Mothership-as-Dungeon encounters around the Grease spell (no more ATSTs/Brute enemy personnel). I don’t love that as a solve, but whatever.