TSR Companies & Freelancers Distance Themselves From The New TSR

The new TSR (which I refer to as TSR3 to avoid confusion) has doubled down on its stance--which has been widely condemned online--via an ongoing series of tweets and replies from its TSR Games, Giantlands, and Dungeon Hobby Museum social media accounts (possibly operated by Justin LaNasa) in an astonishing PR campaign which makes the original interview which sparked off the controversy look mild in comparison. Various entities are moving to distance themselves from the company and its activities, including TSR2, the company founded in 2011 by Jayson Elliot, which has now declared that it will not be using the name TSR any longer. Other companies including Gen Con and freelancers such as Jeff Dee have also made statements.

For reference -- TSR1 is the (no longer existing) company which launched D&D in 1974, TSR2 is the company founded by Jayson Elliot in 2011 to create Gygax Magazine and which currently publishes the Top Secret RPG, and TSR3 is the newly launched company.

---

Catch up on my previous coverage of this story:

TSR - Ernie Gygax on New TSR, WotC Beefs, Trademarks, Licensees, 5E, & More

A YouTube channel, 'Live From the Bunker', interviewed Ernie Gygax about the new TSR. I've watched and decided to try to transcribe the most relevant parts of it, but the full hour-long video is below if you want to see the whole interview and full context. Ernie Gygax is one of D&D...

www.enworld.org

TSR - TSR (2) Confirms TSR (3)'s Acquisition of Trademark (Updated!)

Jayson Elliot registered the TSR trademark back in 2011 and used it to launch Gygax Magazine along with Ernie and Luke Gygax. The two Gygax's left the company a few years later after Gary Gygax's (co-founder of TSR (1) back in the 1970s) widow, Gail Gygax, forced the closure of Gygax Magazine...

www.enworld.org

A TSR Announces a Star Frontiers Reboot

One of the new TSRs (yes there are now two TSRs!) has announced a reboot of Star Frontiers, the sci-fi game made by the original TSR back in the 1980s. Star Frontiers was a percentile dice roleplaying game set in a galaxy with four races (Human, Dralasite, Vrusk, and Yazirian) which were re-used...

www.enworld.org

TSR - TSR Is Back.... Again!

TSR is back... again! A new company, using the name and logo of the original publisher of Dungeons & Dragons has just been launched, along with a limited edition new game called Giantlands, and a theme park! But first, some history! Because this isn't the first time TSR has been resurrected...

www.enworld.org

---

TSR3's social media accounts initially sought to distance the company from Ernie Gygax's statements, but within a few hours had reversed course and doubled down on his stance. Note that there have been dozens of social media posts from the company over the last few days, and still continuing as I type this, and I don't intend to share them all here.

(Thanks to Daniel Fox for sharing screenshots below via Twitter).

TSR2 -- "Update to our earlier tweet - we will NOT be licensing anything from the new company claiming rights to the TSR logos. We are not working with them in any fashion."

Gen Con -- "Gen Con is not associated with TSR Games and we don't support their recent statements. While the foundation of Gen Con is tied with the history of TTRPGs, our goal is to build off the good, acknowledge the bad, and work toward a present free from racism, misogyny, and homophobia."

Gen Con has also indicated that they do not intend to allow TSR3 at the convention.

GAMA (the Game Manufacturers Association) -- "We’re aware of the appalling statements published by TSR Games and their founder - GAMA does not condone nor agree with any part of it. We pride ourselves on supporting and promoting inclusivity always. Our motto is “A game at every table, a table for everyone”. Transphobia, racism, and sexism will not be tolerated. That means that TSR is not welcome at Origins Game Fair, GAMA Expo or any event affiliated with our organization."

Jeff Dee -- "There is a rumor going around that I am part of this new TSR company. That is not accurate. I have done some work for them as a freelance artist. That’s how I make my living, and spreading the misinformation that I’m now employed full-time by one particular client could stop other clients from approaching me and hurt my business. So, please do not spread that rumor. If I ever become a full-time employee anywhere again, I will announce that myself. Thanks. UPDATE: After investigating reports about statements made by representatives of this new TSR, I have determined that I can no longer do business with them in good conscience. I've returned their downpayment on the next piece of art I was scheduled to do for them. And yeah, I could sure use some new commissions to make up for this big hit on my cashflow"

Jim Ward, an original TSR alumnus and who wrote Giantlands, TSR3's flagship product -- "At the present time I know little or nothing about the relaunch of TSR. Right now I don't see how anyone could pick up where the old company left off. Yes it's a name with some logos, that is all I know."

Luke Gygax -- "FYI- I am not involved with any TSR company nor is Gary Con nor anyone else in my family outside of Ernie. Full stop. That is all ... I have reasons for distancing myself. The way TSR treats people online in their public exchanges is rude. The museum is a for profit business and was asking for donations. Using names of people to promote without their knowledge. Going out of the way to talk gender/woke stuff ... Also basically jacking the TSR logo from Jayson Elliot. The bombastic press releases and claims to old IP. Making a quick nostalgia money grab based on my fathers name and not much else. So I’m making it clear I don’t like this style and I have ZERO to do with TSR"

TSR3 responds to Luke Gygax​

Tim Kask, an original TSR alumnus who worked at the company until 1980, spoke at length on this topic in a YouTube video (below). I've transcribed some bits, but he says a whole load more (ellipses represent sections I have not included, for reasons of brevity), so check out the video for the whole thing.

"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.

But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.

That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.

Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....

... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....

... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."

​

 

[embee]

I'm quite skeptical that they are doing any damage to WotC at all.

They're doing damage to older players. When the face of the older generation is a cartoonishly out-of-touch, hidebound grognard, it hurts the game as a whole by creating a generational rift.

On top of it all, there winds up being a real risk to a loss of institutional knowledge as grognard tendencies frequently run afoul of societal changes. Two social media examples are "3 Wise DMs" and "Dungeoncraft." 3WD are classic old-school gamers. And, when you listen to them, you can tell that, while they're not perfect when it comes to understanding the long-standing gender and racial problems baked into the game and that the 2020s are not the 1980s, they are trying.

On the other hand, Professor DM of Dungeoncraft not infrequently digs in his heels on changes to the game and society and too often sings the all-too-familiar refrain of "in my day."

The difference is there. I'll put up with Thorin's obnoxious singing at the beginning of 3WD because those guys are trying to buck bad habits. And more often than not, I eyeroll Professor DM and think "there he goes again on another rant."

3WD takes a chance on new trends. While they'll reminisce about AD&D and 2e, they proudly talk about how they run 5e.

I grew up playing B/X in the 80s in the basement of my junior high as part of the D&D Club. In college, I played 2e and Vampire. But my group doesn't give a damn about those systems. They've been playing 5e since it came out. And so I run 5e. Part of me would love to run B/X or 2e for them. But if they don't want to play those systems, I'm not going to go twisting arms. On top of that, given that my sibling came out as trans last year and loves 5e in part because WOTC is trying to fix some long-standing issues, I give WOTC props for it. Making my friends and family happy goes a long way in my book.

There's only so much crapping on 5e by old fogeys that anyone wants to hear. And the more old fogeys that shoot their mouth off about how 5e is too woke, the more it reinforces a stereotype of older players being against progress.

 

[Charlaquin]

I find it odd that much of anything in the past is free of some combination of racism, sexism, and bigotry... or that many other people who've thought about it are surprised to learn it was at least one of those. I assume the future will look back on us with shaking heads too.

I certainly hope so. There’s always room for improvement, and it will only be a good thing if society improves to the point where they can look back at us as we are now and think “dear lord, how did that fly back then?”

 

[Charlaquin]

But the vast majority of people did not because their views on a great many issues differed from ours. In 1984, Sixteen Candles and Revenge of the Nerds hit the theaters. There were no mainstream discussions regarding the scene in Sixteen Candles where a drunk and passed out Caroline is left in a car with Geek with the implication that he could do whatever he wanted with her. There was no mainstream outrage caused by Revenge of the Nerds regarding the panty raid, filming nude coeds without their consent, or one nerd disguising himself as a cheerleader's boyfriend in order to have sex with her. The only hue and cry I read about the random harlot table came from an anti-D&D pamphlet a friend got at church in the early 90s (and was likely published years earlier) and they didn't mention anything about misogyny.

I guarantee you there were people who took issue with all of those things. What has changed is mostly that now those people’s voices are actually being heard, and listened to.

 

[Charlaquin]

Which game was it that alternated between he and she (VtM 2e)?

I believe all of the White Wolf games did (possibly starting with 2e?), and still do.

 

[R_Chance]

They're doing damage to older players. When the face of the older generation is a cartoonishly out-of-touch, hidebound grognard, it hurts the game as a whole by creating a generational rift.

On top of it all, there winds up being a real risk to a loss of institutional knowledge as grognard tendencies frequently run afoul of societal changes. Two social media examples are "3 Wise DMs" and "Dungeoncraft." 3WD are classic old-school gamers. And, when you listen to them, you can tell that, while they're not perfect when it comes to understanding the long-standing gender and racial problems baked into the game and that the 2020s are not the 1980s, they are trying.

On the other hand, Professor DM of Dungeoncraft not infrequently digs in his heels on changes to the game and society and too often sings the all-too-familiar refrain of "in my day."

The difference is there. I'll put up with Thorin's obnoxious singing at the beginning of 3WD because those guys are trying to buck bad habits. And more often than not, I eyeroll Professor DM and think "there he goes again on another rant."

3WD takes a chance on new trends. While they'll reminisce about AD&D and 2e, they proudly talk about how they run 5e.

I grew up playing B/X in the 80s in the basement of my junior high as part of the D&D Club. In college, I played 2e and Vampire. But my group doesn't give a damn about those systems. They've been playing 5e since it came out. And so I run 5e. Part of me would love to run B/X or 2e for them. But if they don't want to play those systems, I'm not going to go twisting arms. On top of that, given that my sibling came out as trans last year and loves 5e in part because WOTC is trying to fix some long-standing issues, I give WOTC props for it. Making my friends and family happy goes a long way in my book.

There's only so much crapping on 5e by old fogeys that anyone wants to hear. And the more old fogeys that shoot their mouth off about how 5e is too woke, the more it reinforces a stereotype of older players being against progress.

I don't see a lot of problems with PDM. He does prefer a more lethal style of game. The gender and age range of his player groups is diverse. Other than that I have no clue about them. He draws on his experience as a player and DM. He wants the dice to fall where they may and the story to emerge from player decisions. What am I missing?

edit Of course he is rather young. Relatively of course

 

[ccs]

That...

No, not cool.

Regimes, definitely, but naughty word is is okay to export racism for life because of national potitics, and my maternal grandfather both was in Burma and had a virulent hatred of asians for the rest of his life which was still wrong.

{shrugs}
Hating them because they're different (skin color, eyes, whatever) = that's wrong.

Hating them because of their actions (or in the case of the complicit civilians, their lack of actions in reigning in their Govts.) that F* up the world, kill 70-85+million people, cause injury & suffering to hundreds millions more, the heinous atrocities they committed along the way, & a slew of resulting problems that still echo into the present?
Sorry, our Grandparents weren't wrong.

 

[GuyBoy]

Dangerous assumption.

From memory the original Nazis 2/3 of the hierarchy had university degrees. I got stuck working with a holocaust denier.

Before that I didn't know holocaust denial was even a thing (2003/4). Whatever else he was stupid wasn't one of them eg well read, articulate etc.

Strange guy though as he condemned the Nazis behaviour in Eastern Europe as well. Also anti authortarianism.

Banality of Evil concept is more accurate imho.

Agree totally. Many/most racists may be stupid; many are knuckle-dragging inadequates who respond enthusiastically to the chance of hatred and violence.
The real problem is those that give them that chance and manipulate them cleverly.
The leading Nazis were evil, not stupid. We have to remember this, because it is in the interests of their current iteration for us not to remember. There are assorted populists out there who happily push and promote far right ideology, albeit in a digital age.

The Nazis had plenty of intelligent people; Eichmann, Heydrich etc were highly educated. Hitler wasn’t but he was culturally quite sophisticated. Thinkers such as Lanz Von Liebenfels influenced them. Their spiritual successors are still with us today, sadly.

 

[DammitVictor]

I have a million and a half posts in my "insert quotes" queue, so I'm just... not going to do that.

---

I don't like talking about Saint Gary. He's no longer here to defend himself and he's no longer capable of taking any actions whatsoever concerning the things he said and did in life. May he rest comfortably in the arms of his ancestors.

I first met Gary Gygax here. His user name was Col_Pladoh. I believe it was Col_Pladoh on Dragonsfoot as well. Everything I am about to say was learned either here, or on Dragonsfoot, or from his own words in written publications.

Without diminishing the cruelty of Ernie Gygax's comments this week, Gary Gygax spent his entire public life writing and defending statements that were much, much worse from 1973 until his death in 2008. In defense of his position on orcish noncombatants and "always chaotic evil", he quoted by name an American war criminal whose atrocities against Native Americans were so unspeakable during the American Civil War that he was dishonorably discharged and discommendated by the Union Army. I'm not going to look up where he originally made that statement, but the last time he made a public statement in defense of it was in 2005. His sexist beliefs and attitudes have already been documented in this thread. I do not know if he had a similar record of homophobic and/or transphobic statements, and I do not care enough to attempt to find out.

Likewise, his business practices were frequently grossly unethical. It's relatively common knowledge that a couple of years after TSR published Dungeons & Dragons, with Gary Gygax's and Dave Arneson's names on the cover, Gary Gygax added some rules from various sources and republished Advanced Dungeons & Dragons as a new game, with his name on the cover alone and supposedly no financial obligation to Dave Arneson. The concurrent publication of Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons from 1981 until, IIRC, 1995 was the result of the courts disagreeing.

What is not relatively common knowledge-- though hardly a secret-- is that several parts of AD&D were not written by Gary Gyax or by TSR employees, but were uncompensated fan works, at the same time that TSR was sending cease & desist letters to fanzines and third-party publishers selling perfectly legal modules and supplements for AD&D. It was commonly joked at the time that "T$R" stood for "They $ue Regularly".

When TSR needed a quick influx of cash money-- a necessary step for most small businesses becoming big businesses; a good thing-- Gary Gygax and his business partner Don Kaye sold the majority ownership of TSR, Inc. to Brian and William Blume. Gygax had a contentious relationship with his new business partners almost immediately-- for reasons I don't know, and won't assume were Gygax's fault-- and after a series of conflicts about creative control and the distribution of royalties, he attempted to modify the copyrights declaration on the unpublished Oriental Adventures, a book he neither wrote nor paid for himself, to claim the book as his exclusive property.

When you hear stories about how the Blumes forced the hapless genius Gary Gygax out of the company he built, this is why. A number of TSR's employees quit in protest; one must assume they knew the story about OA, so one must also assume they believed Gygax had some justification.

I am not writing this to belittle the man. He was a genius, and his work touched a lot of lives-- including my own and everyone reading this-- for the better. He also hurt a lot of people, including myself and several other people here. I think... when we're remembering his legacy, we should focus on the former.

But when we excuse or justify Ernie G. Gygax Jr's recent behavior-- political or business-- on the grounds that Dungeons & Dragons is his family's birthright, we need to remember that E. Gary Gygax Sr's similar behavior forty years ago is the reason that it isn't. Evil Wizards of the Coast didn't snatch Ernie's inheritance out of his pram; Wizards of the Coast bought TSR as a kindness from the woman who bought it from the brothers that his father sold it to.

---

Screaming pedantry says I have more ground to cover here, but character limits say I don't. Next post.

 

[TheSword]

In my head, I viewed Gary Gygax as one the better end of the ethical spectrum in his era.

But if his son is trafficking with racist supremacists? Vicious homophobes? Enforced gender?

Something foul is in someones ideology.

Can you clarify or point me in the direction of what he said that was homophobic? No need to repeat verbatim just point me to where in the tangled mess I should look?

[edit. Forget that. I’ve just seen you said ‘trafficking with’, not that he himself was a vicious homophobe]

 

[Saracenus]

I am going to just say, I am an old fart. With that out of way I will attempt to share a bit of my hard won wisdom with some of the younger folk here.

When you dig into the past, even the near past, you are going to find all kinds of ugly mixed in with the good. Virtually no one, including myself, is free of it. If you believe that “evil” is a stain on the soul and permanently marks you then eventually everyone is going to be evil with that world view. I am not evil, but I am not purely good either.

Gary Gygax was a human being and like all humans he had flaws and weaknesses. Some of them have been brought to light here in this very thread. But Gary also had a profound impact on my life. The game he developed with Dave Arneson gave me a social life line that probably saved my life. I, the flawed human that I am, can hold these contradictory versions of Gary in my head because both are true. I am appalled by his belief in biological determinism but at the same time I am grateful for the joy he made possible in my early, very unhappy life.

There are no easy answers here. The world is messy. People are complex. Despite the last 5 years here in the USA, people are rarely just cartoon villains twirling their evil mustaches.

I cannot tell you how Gary raised his children. I wasn’t there. One of the few people here who was is Rob Kuntz. I can tell you that damning Gary for the sins of one of them and ignoring the counter examples of his other children is a reductive and frankly not fair.

Do not let the trauma that Ernie has inflicted on others disconnect us from our own humanity. The anger at him is real and frankly necessary. But allowing that anger to ask for Ernie’s family to disown him? No. If Ernie is going to have a chance to redeem himself, he is going to need the support of his family (I include Rob in that mix) to do it.

If you want to understand how someone can fall down a bad rabbit hole, you don’t have to look further than the documentary “The Brainwashing of My Dad” by Jen Senko or read “A Game Designer’s Analysis of QAnon by Reed Berkowitz.
Links:

The Brainwashing of My Dad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This means nothing if you don’t hold out hope for redemption (real redemption, not the non-apology he tried to give).

Me, I am going to hope that the intervention of Ernies family will bring him back to the light.

Peace.