All Characters Should be Good at Talking to NPCs

RainOnTheSun

Explorer
I'd think that the (real or imagined) consequences of failing a social roll make a big difference. If someone's playing a game, and their PC shoots at an enemy and misses, it's not such a big deal. Even if their character has a lower attack rating than the group's combat specialist, there's no harm in trying to help out. If their PC shoots at an enemy and hits a friend in the back, though, that's another thing entirely. That's being worse than useless: actively harmful. And if the PC was more likely to shoot a friend than an enemy, it would make total sense for the player not to try to shoot at all. Social systems in a lot of games are vague and open-ended enough that it can be hard to tell whether failing your check is missing or shooting your friend in the back.

(First post! Hello. I like this forum.)
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I disagree. It's closely aligned to what who the players are and who the GM is, but not aligned closely to what completely different people in a completely fantastic place are going to do.
Unless one can find a way of somehow, even if not fully, inhabiting the mind of one's character. It can be done, though I'll be the first to admit that some are better at it than others and I'm by no means the best. :)
Oh, I agree, but playacting rarely does that for me, while I get it quite often in games that have mechanical teeth. There's nothing magical or special about playacting that does this more often than other methods (on average, individual preference and results, of course, vary).
I'm the other way around, as through playing 3e I concluded that mechanics - toothy or not - tend to get in the way of roleplaying rather than aid it.
 

Argyle King

Legend
I think the mechanucal structure of a system or the established structure of an adventure and what they reward or don't reward in a satisfactory way (from the perception of a player) can color how a player has their PC interact with the world around them.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
3e has pretty much the worst set of social mechanics I have ever seen in an RPG. Basing your opinion of all social mechanics on that is like watching a Uwe Boll film and deciding all movies aren't worth your time.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Unless one can find a way of somehow, even if not fully, inhabiting the mind of one's character. It can be done, though I'll be the first to admit that some are better at it than others and I'm by no means the best. :)
This, though, is the contention -- can you actually inhabit the mind of a character? You're asserting it's possible, and I'm saying it's not. What happens is that we get to a point where we may feel this way, but this isn't the same thing at all, and shouldn't be used to say that playacting with the goal of inhabiting the mind of your character as unattainable ideal is the best way to deal with social encounters.

Let's break this down a bit. Let's say I have a character that has a flaw where they will steal things. If I'm using your method, then I, as the player, must consciously choose to engage in this flaw, and will always be doing so with regard to the players around me. Any association of my character's desires to steal are only mirrored in myself if I actually share that desire -- there's no separation of the character and me at this point. This isn't inhabitation, though, because I don't actually change and become my character, but rather, my character is now just a reflection of me and how I think. When I choose to have my character steal, it's still a choice, and I'm probably weighing the choice against the risks in might engender in the game, whether or not I'll face social opprobrium from the other players for doing so, and so forth. The choice to engage this flaw is never one that originates or is based within the character, even if I'm rationalizing it as such. The engagement with the character here is performative.

And, that said, there's a huge amount of value and fun to be had doing this! Performative acts are part and parcel of a lot of entertainment activities humans like to do, not just RPGs. Do not read the above as any kind of dismissal or slight at this approach -- it's only meant to show that the belief that this is somehow a more pure or better way to engage with character is false, not that it's not a perfectly cromulent activity or approach! I quite enjoy performative aspects of play, so I'm not about to abandon this approach; I'm just not going to say that it's more pure than it is with regards to social activity or roleplaying in general.

Now, to contrast this approach, you can have a mechanical system that can engage the same thing. Here, a mechanical trigger would set off the character's flaw and thefts. There's quite a few ways to do this, so you can select for preference, but, to me, they all pretty much end up doing the same thing, whether metacurrency driven or check driven -- they force a new state onto the character. Here, as a player, your job isn't to choose for your character to engage their flaw (although you can usually still do this), but rather to accept that your character isn't you and has made this choice and then go with it. This puts the choice-making for the character sometimes out of your hands -- you aren't directing your character as a perfect representation of your wants and desires, but rather as an actual other person who does things that you might not. I've found that making the effort to realize that this is a different person I get to observe can actually improve my emotional connection to the character, meaning I'm feeling what this character is nominally feeling in that moment. This is also a very valid way to approach roleplaying a character, and can create surprising social encounters for everyone involved.

And, of course, you can mix the two -- choosing to engage character when you want and how you want with mechanical inputs coming in as well.
I'm the other way around, as through playing 3e I concluded that mechanics - toothy or not - tend to get in the way of roleplaying rather than aid it.
As others have said, the 3.x social skills are rather poorly put together, with hardcoded results baked in that do not at all reference the current fiction. There's a reason diplomancer as a term was invented. However, I always find it strange when people complain about skills that do this but are 100% perfectly fine with Charm Person and similar spells doing even more work. The usually deployed excuse of "it's magic" rings very hollow to me -- it's a circular justification that magic can such things because it's magic.
 

Helpful NPC Thom

Adventurer
What you seem to be after is that all characters be able to participate equally effectively in all scenes; and here I differ in that I very much want characters to have fairly clear strengths and weaknesses, in order to encourage some inter-dependency between the characters. And if a character's participation in a scene ends up hindering the party, so what; as long as it's entertaining.
No, I don't think that characters should be equally effective in all scenes. Rather, I think all characters should be able to contribute meaningfully. This is especially important in scenes or encounters that take up a good portion of game time; no character should spend the duration of combat not doing things or consistently failing to do things because that produces unpleasant gameplay. In a game with fast-paced combat, this is less of an issue, but D&D's granularity with regard to combat encounters demands combat efficacy from all characters. (5e does this fairly well.)

More to the point: a social encounter should not default to some characters not talking to NPCs for fear of a failed skill roll, which I've seen happen on multiple occasions. Either they shy away from conversing, or they push the "party face" to socialize in their stead. An unfortunate product of gameplay.
 

MGibster

Legend
Drop the concept noted in bold right out of the mechanics of the game, along with just about any other way in which dice can override at-table roleplaying. Then, just let your players play their PCs through social situations however they see fit; and if a few players end up not talking much it's by their own choice in how they want to roleplay those particular characters rather than anything forced by numbers on the character sheet.
That's what I'd like for the most part. I want players to feel like they can engage in some role playing without their characters being smooth talkers.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
While I view having more well rounded characters who can participate in more types of scenes as a good thing what I like even more are having niches within a given type of encounter so we can have more diverse and interesting sorts of social encounters and sorts of exploration encounters where players have to work together to be effective just like they have to in combat.

Even more important to me when it comes to social scenes (which most of the games I run tend to heavily skew to) is keeping the focus on the fiction. A well designed fiction first social influence system like we get in Hillfolk, Dogs in the Vineyard, Chronicles of Darkness, and Exalted Third Edition amongst others keeps the focus on the fiction and prevents us from ignoring salient bits of the fiction in order to get the result we want. Often I find that when we just play out conversations at the table it can be easy to filter out important details when they are inconvenient. A good social influence system can help keep the focus on the fiction and prevent us from getting too caught up in our conceptions of who these characters are. It can also really help situations that should be tense not fall prey to our natural agreeableness.

That last bit can be a big problem for me. Not so much for some other people I bet.
 

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