D&D 5E (+) What would you want for 5e Dark Sun?

[Steampunkette]

I think the Dragonlance topic of the same name is pretty great and I'd like to follow through a similar course with Dark Sun under the following precepts:

1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

2) Dark Sun has a ton of Systems Changes. From Defiling to Psionics to Environmental Survival. How drastically would you want to see those systems altered, or perhaps do you have ideas on how they could be carried forward? Or do you think that such changes should even be -applied- to a modern table sensibility due to the preponderance of roll-playing as opposed to role-playing in modern game design?

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I'll go first.

Narrative Changes for Modern Sensibilities:

• More Female Sorcerer-Kings.
  • On Athas there were only 3 female sorcerer-kings. Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy, and Yarmuke. And Yarmuke was destroyed by Hamanu who also wiped her city from the world.
  • Thankfully, most of the Sorcerer-Kings gender is pretty irrelevant to who they are and what they accomplish. So making Oronis, Tectuktitlay, or even Andropinis (Who has the most masculine name of them all, Man-Penis) into Female Characters wouldn't actually change much of anything.
  • Could even have one of the Sorcerer-Kings be transgender. Nibenay presents a draconic form and largely hides from the public eye. It could be interesting if that draconic form were feminine.
• LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.
  • I don't mean big and broad-ranging LGBTQ Lobbyists. I'm talking about smaller organizations of protection. Athas is a harsh place and having trans characters know that, for example, a building with a painted Kank's Head on the front wall wall is a safe space could be interesting. It would also set Athas aside from other settings as one that is harsh, but not without it's mercies.
  • Similarly, an alliance of people with different sexualities creating a group-atmosphere of protection and solidarity might be nice in a cruel world. Like maybe no one cares if some courtier is slipping into silk-sheets with courtiers of similar genders, or whether gladiators are coupling in the barracks between matches, but there's still plenty of reason for abundant caution and escape plans and the like for when bigots -do- rear their ugly heads
  • Though it would also be kind of great to just have no societal stigmas tied to LGBTQ+ existence, of course.
• Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.
  • 5e D&D tries to keep slavery in the hands of evil people. Which is why the Drow are totally willing to enslave you at the start of Out of the Abyss. The main thrust of slavery in modern fantasy is that it exists, it is evil, and only evil people enslave others.
  • Therefore having slavery as a thing in the setting would still work, but the players would be actively encouraged to fight and kill slavers when possible/reasonable, and free any slaves they find. Which is what good people should do in any setting.
• Points of (Dim) Light?
  • Athas has always been a place with a handful of real "Towns" and a few villages scattered across the sands between them, often 2-3 days travel apart (On foot) and usually plagued by cannibal Elves, cannibal Thri-Kreen, and cannibal Halflings. Because, honestly, cannibalism is just super popular as a dining option on Athas.
  • This sort of physical structure lends itself well to a Points of Light campaign. And, honestly, making that the style du jour for Athas could fit really, -really-, well. So long as the lights are dim. So long as the safety is fleeting, the comfort expensive, and the danger swift to return.
• Ethnic Variety
  • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.

Systems Changes:

• Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.
  • 5e's "All magic is just magic" is just not good for Athas. Athas uses Defiling and Preserving as a powerful narrative element, and one that Clerics and Druids are incapable of doing because their power doesn't defile.
  • Athas would need to break the "Weave Narrative" to work. Different types of magic -need- to be different to interact with this core identity of the setting.
• Psionics as Default
  • A Psionicist Class (I love KibblesTasty's) would be great. Especially one that takes cantrip-casting to heart and builds off of it.
  • Probably a Psionic-Warrior option or something similar as well. Likely as a Subclass of Fighter or maybe Ranger?
  • Maybe just a whole mess of Psionic Subclasses in general.
  • Definitely a ton of Wild Talents as Feats.
• Defiling as Default
  • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
  • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
  • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.
• Travel Mechanics
  • Traveling from place to place isn't hard, really. Pick a direction and go. Getting there -alive- is the trick.
  • Heat Mechanics, Environmental Hazards, Dangerous Monsters, and most importantly LIMITED RESOURCES.
  • Water isn't always available on Athas. And even when you -can- get some it's often dirty.
  • Some sort of mechanical structure that makes survival against the World into it's own unique danger layered on top of everything else would be spectacular.

Power Level

• Stronger Characters. Harsher Challenges.
  • Athasian characters have been stronger than those of other settings, often with less magical power available. Previous editions handled this with higher attribute scores, which is also an option but consider replacing Magic Items with "Heroic Power"
  • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
  • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
  • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24
• Bigger Stats
  • Maybe give players their level 4 ASI at level 1? Or their level 8 at level 1 so they just don't get one of the two during leveling.
  • This would keep their overall power level similar while boosting them at low-level play before they can play into the "Heroic Power" system.
• Wild Talent at level 1?
  • Wild Talents are an important part of Athasian culture. Not -everyone- has them, but enough people do that it's just considered normal.
  • Maybe give all players a single level 1 "Free Feat" which can be a Wild Talent or not, as they personally prefer.
• Interesting Weapon and Armor Rules.
  • In addition to having some really cool and slightly freaky weapons, Athas also had rules relating to Bone, Stone, and Wooden weapons that probably should be updated.
  • Weapon Breakage was a common problem for Athasian Heroes who would often see their favorite Carrikal break off in the thick armored hide of a Braxat or crushed under the bulk of a rampaging Mellikot.
  • Armor/Shield Breakage was also an issue, but slightly (SLIGHTLY) less common. Maybe give players the ability to actively sacrifice shields and armor to negate a critical hit altogether, or something? Not sure.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Steampunkette]

So... Thoughts on Defiling:

I now agree with people that making Preserving suck and Defiling good is probably the wrong way to go about it. I feel like Preserving should be essentially default-5e spellcasting, while Defiling improves it, somehow.

I'm really enamored of the idea of using a point-system to show that the environment has a specific amount of potential defilable material/water/whatever before it is wiped out. That way every arcanist knows that the system is there, and can feel the energy right at their fingertips and know they -could- be stronger... at a cost.

So far I'd been planning on slashing Sorcerers with the intention of highjacking Metamagic and Flexible Casting for use as the core Defiling mechanics. Give the land Defiling Points, let any arcane character tap into them for Metamagic stuffs and free spell slots... Very simple and elegant.

But there's been some pushback on axing Sorcerers. And suggestions to make Sorcerers into a Defiler-Specific class which is particularly -good- at defiling.

So what sort of system can we implement in place of Flex-Casting and Metamagic to make Defiling particularly tempting? It needs to:

1) Improve spellcasting power in a measurable fashion. We can't have it be -just- more spell slots, because that doesn't make a Defiler's magic more powerful, it just means they have more of it. Which doesn't really matter in a fight against a Preserver since one or the other will be dead well before they're out of spells.

2) Improve multiple aspects of spellcasting. We can't have it -just- increase damage dice. There's so many more spells out there that improving dice size or quantity wouldn't assist. Though having it increase the size of a damage dice could be interesting... But spells like Hold Person are much more powerful when twin-cast, for example, or have a higher target count.

3) Be useful as a reserve. A Wizard who has run out of spell slots, who is in a lush garden, and who sees their friends in danger, their life coming to an end, and desires to protect them and their cause... should be able to make the terrible choice to defile that place of beauty.

 

[DammitVictor]

Realistically they're not going to rewrite the rules to the extent they did in 2E.

Which would be why I don't really want them to do it at all. Since we're only pretending here, I figure I might as well pretend someone's going to try to do a good job.

 

[Steampunkette]

Second edition AD&D didn't really rewrite much of anything for the purpose of the gaming system.

It had tons of narrative changes, for sure. But class mechanics? Didn't really change very much. Neither did the spells, really, aside from spells which created food and water or allowed planar travel.

Stronger characters and psionic power were the massive system changes that dark sun instituted.

5th edition however, requires greater changes both narratively and mechanically to make it work. But still mostly narrative.

 

[DammitVictor]

It had tons of narrative changes, for sure. But class mechanics? Didn't really change very much. Neither did the spells, really, aside from spells which created food and water or allowed planar travel.

There were three whole new classes and two banned core classes. There were (originally) four different types of Cleric with different spell lists and granted abilities. Every single non-human race had its class restrictions changed and its multiclass options expanded.

It was considerably more than anything that anyone is proposing in this thread, and as you note, AD&D 2e started out better suited to it than 5e is.

 

[Steampunkette]

What if we rewrote the sorcerer narrative?

Instead of being empowered by some external force made internal, like a genie ancestor or exposure to dragon magic or whatever, we literally made them into particularly skilled defilers?

We leave sorcery points on them. But we replace the metamagic and flexible casting class abilities with something new. Metamagic and flexible casting become functions of defiling, which sorcerers are good at. Their sorcery points do not represent an inborn pool of defiling magic, but rather the limit of their ability to reach beyond the surface of Athas into the deeper strata to deeper wells of life and water that they defile?

But we also give them a significant ability to preserve. In place of metamagic we could give them the ability to expend their own hit dice as a method of preserving. They still get to use the metamagic and flexible casting defiling functions but in a preserving manner?

Pretty much every version of a subclass would need severe refluffing... Not sure on this course yet.

There were three whole new classes and two banned core classes. There were (originally) four different types of Cleric with different spell lists and granted abilities. Every single non-human race had its class restrictions changed and its multiclass options expanded.

It was considerably more than anything that anyone is proposing in this thread, and as you note, AD&D 2e started out better suited to it than 5e is.

There were not four different clerics. There were four class kits for clerics which allowed access to one of the spheres and the much larger everyone gets it sphere. A standard cleric also didn't have access to every possible sphere in second edition. They got what their gods gave them. It's just a matter of reordering the spheres.

As to new classes you had the psionicist, and then you had class kits for priest Templars and fighter Gladiators. You were still a fighter, you were just also a gladiator.

Every new race that is added in any D&D setting for second edition had its own multi-classing and dual-classing and so forth rules. The elves and dwarves of Athas were not your standard elves and dwarves. So like any new race they got new multi-classing options compared to older races.

They definitely did ban two classes. But they banned those classes because they didn't work in the setting. The lure of the classes and the identity of the classes were too strictly ordered to work within the setting.

But now people are comfortable refluffing the heck out of things. We're comfortable with evil and neutral paladins. So we don't have to do that kind of thing anymore.

Well I recognize your points here, I feel like the majority of stuff that was actually changed in the setting was narrative rather than mechanical. Because it was just such a drastically different setting from standard D&D at the time.

 

[DammitVictor]

There were not four different clerics. There were four class kits for clerics which allowed access to one of the spheres and the much larger everyone gets it sphere. A standard cleric also didn't have access to every possible sphere in second edition. They got what their gods gave them. It's just a matter of reordering the spheres.

Specialty Priests didn't exist in core AD&D, only Clerics and Druids. Most Specialty Priests were published in setting-specific supplements, and they were not called "Clerics" or "Druids" of their ethos.

I haven't looked in a long time. I think the four Elemental Spheres in Dark Sun were a lot bigger than their PHB counterparts.

As to new classes you had the psionicist, and then you had class kits for priest Templars and fighter Gladiators. You were still a fighter, you were just also a gladiator.

They were classes in the rulebook. Gladiator was a class in the Warrior group, like Fighter but not Fighter. And I wasn't referring to Psionicsts, which were not printed in the Dark Sun boxed set(s), but in Complete Psionics Handbook, which was listed as a requirement to play Dark Sun.

I am referring to the Templar, which was a Priest class but not a Cleric; the Gladiator, which was not a Fighter; and the Athasian Bard that replaced the PHB Bard. Which means there were four new classes, because I forgot the Trader which was a Rogue class but not a Thief or Bard.

Personally, I agree with making Gladiator a subclass of Fighter and Bard a subclass of Rogue, and Trader... a Background, probably.

You are abusing the game's common terminology to render it meaningless.

Every new race that is added in any D&D setting for second edition had its own multi-classing and dual-classing and so forth rules. The elves and dwarves of Athas were not your standard elves and dwarves. So like any new race they got new multi-classing options compared to older races.

So all of the nonhuman races in Dark Sun were whole new races? That point supports my argument.

They definitely did ban two classes. But they banned those classes because they didn't work in the setting. The lure of the classes and the identity of the classes were too strictly ordered to work within the setting.

You'll notice I'm not advocating for banning the Paladin, because we've found an appropriate use for the class-- modeling one of the new classes from the original Dark Sun. I'm also tentatively not even suggesting we ban the Bard, but they either need to be made a divine class and given appropriate restrictions, or have their healing spells removed because even Preservers using arcane magic to heal is just wrong.

I'm normally a huge advocate of arcane healing magic, but it's not appropriate for Preserving/Defiling magic. And Clerics on Athas aren't gross.

But now people are comfortable refluffing the heck out of things. We're comfortable with evil and neutral paladins. So we don't have to do that kind of thing anymore.

That's one way of framing it. I'd frame it more like we've devalued having a consistent relationship between mechanics and narrative, and grown permissive of allowing the official developers to homogenize settings into bland mush to facilitate vapid cross-compatibility.

We don't have to do that kind of thing anymore, but we also don't have to reboot a unique and beloved classic setting if we're only going to make it just like the settings we already have.

Well I recognize your points here, I feel like the majority of stuff that was actually changed in the setting was narrative rather than mechanical. Because it was just such a drastically different setting from standard D&D at the time.

I think you already said that it's even more drastically different from the standard D&D of our time. I really do feel like I'm supporting making as few changes to the mechanics as necessary to support the narrative, but I'm simply completely intolerant of making any changes to the narrative to preserve the system. I think it's lazy and I think it defeats the purpose of rebooting the setting at all, I think the current D&D development team relies on it far too much, and it's the number one reason I have absolutely zero faith in them to produce anything I want to buy.

I'm trying not to be negative, and I'm sorry that I'm mostly failing. I will try to be more helpful while accepting that my vision doesn't match anyone else's here.

 

[Steampunkette]

@Shroompunk Warlord Negativity and criticism absolutely have their place.

I would like to clarify, though? Do you refer to the setting narrative, the class narrative, or both?

 

[DammitVictor]

Both. I don't have a problem with narrative changes to better suit modern sensibilities-- within reason; Dark Sun is supposed to be oppressive and portraying oppression isn't endorsing it-- but the themes of the setting and continuity with pre-existing lore are both very important to me, even if that pre-existing lore was the product of weird and no longer inapplicable constraints. These things give settings a delicious organic texture.

Every class in 2e Dark Sun represented a fairly coherent type of thing. Clerics, Druids, and Templars were all Priests, but they were different kinds of Priest because they had different kinds of power source. Preservers and Defilers were diametrically opposed approaches to the same power source-- and I think the 4e rules for preserving and defiling were orders of magnitude better than the 2e rules. Honestly, I think Gladiators and Bards and Traders were wholly unnecessary, barely justifying design space, but something by those names needs to be included or people more commited than myself will riot.

If a class exists in 5e Dark Sun, I believe it must represent a coherent type of thing on Athas. I'm okay with the Paladin/Warlock thing because narratively speaking, Clerics, Paladins, and Warlocks all represent similar things with different powers. I'm less okay with Presevers being Wizards and Defilers being Sorcerers... mostly because I think it's clumsy, but also because I think the line between the two should be fragile, like in 4e.

I loved Thri-Kreen in 4e. They've always been my favorite race, my first D&D purchase with my own money was Thri-Kreen of Athas, and on and on and the 4e implementation was really cool. The 4e implementation of Half-Giants and Dray was "just use these barely similar and completely unrelated races that already exist", and I'm over it, but it's also a big part of why I'm also over WotC and WotC D&D.

Practically speaking, this is what I want from classes:

• Cleric: 4 (or 8) (Para)Elemental Domains. Modified spell list.
• Fighter: Gladiator and psionic subclasses. EK uses Preserver/Defiler rules.
• Monk: It's fine! Give it a psionic subclass, maybe restrict some of the non-core subclasses I've never looked at.
• Paladin and Warlock: Templars, as I've discussed. Modifying existing Paladin Oaths to fit the Dragon Kings is okay, but remember that "close enough" isn't close enough, and when it isn't close enough, the system budges.
• Rogue: Bard subclass. Maybe Trader subclass. Psionic subclasses. AT uses Preserver/Defiler rules.
• Ranger: Gets Element as free secondary subclass.
• Wizard: Preserver/Defiler mechanics, Preserver/Defiler as secondary subclass with "falling" rules.
• Barbarian and Druid: These classes are fine as-is. Restrict some subclasses and remove some spells from Druid list.
• Bard and Sorcerer: I don't see a way to use the 5e versions of these classes on Athas without massive, "why don't you just make a new class, sicko?" changes.

What I want from races is basically what you've already suggested: new subrace(s) for Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling. All non-PHB races get an actual writeup based on their 2e lore. Add Genasi and Gith.

 

[Steampunkette]

What do you think of Bard as Wilder?

Refluffing all their spells and emotive abilities into psionic effects, keeping them as a sort of rogue-like caster class?

I largely agree on sorcerer. I'm just trying to think of ways to preserve the class no pun intended.

I could see them as a sort of heightened arcane spellcaster? A more extreme version of wizard, kinda. Lift their metamagic and flexible casting feats to use as the defiling rules and then in that place for their character give them some function that allows them to preserve and some function allows them to defile even beyond the level of a wizard or arcane trickster or Eldritch Knight.

Like any arcane caster can preserve and cause no harm, but a sorcerer can sacrifice their own health as a form of preserving which gives them points to use for the defiling effects?

Otherwise, yeah, just cut them.

 

[Faolyn]

If Sorcs exist at all there's 0 reason not to use Wild Magic or Draconic sorcerers.

The reasons are flavor. Well, I suppose Dragon sorcerers could be a holdover from a time when there were actually lots of dragons (if there ever was a time like that in DS history; I dunno), but wild magic doesn't really feel very Dark Sun to me. The setting doesn't quite support that sort of lolrandom chaos.