D&D 5E Giving the arcane gish an identity.

Stormonu

Legend
That's my own take on this thread: I don't think you can make a single martial/arcane hybrid class that does it all - it would need to be extremely broad, encompass all available warrior styles and all non-divine magical styles, and have at least one way to blend them... there wouldn't be a core to the class beyond hit dice. You could cover a lot with a good swordmage, but they're already thin on story (and the traditional archetypes were all race-focused), and that would leave a lot of options off the table.

The better answer is an option for combining spell slots with martial attacks that anyone can pick up pretty quickly.

Consider the Sorcadin: it works pretty well as a gish concept because Divine Smite lets you spend spell slots to add to melee damage, does so efficiently, and scales pretty well. At pal2/sor1 you feel gish-y, and you can then progress in either class as much as you like depending on how you want to play the character. Plus sorcerers have the least rp baggage. But Divine Smite works well with bards and warlocks too, so you don't see a gap in Charisma half-casters. That's already out there.

The int classes don't have that. If Eldritch Knights got a good version of Spellstrike (the Pathfinder Magus feature) this thread wouldn't be necessary. Maybe make a feat? They'd blend well with wizards or artificers, and since there's a lot of types of wizards you'd have a lot of potential options without a lot of work.

Which isn't to say there isn't room for more arcane half-casters (I really like the Janissary idea above) but they can't, in a single class, give everyone (or nearly everyone) what they want, and probably shouldn't try.

(Wis half-casters feel redundant because clerics and druids can cover the space well enough as-is.)
The good news is we don’t have to have one class. Just like Fighter doesn’t make barbarian, paladin and rangers subclasses.

We can put together a decent class that combines the core of Fighter/Wizard. Then we can tackle some of the other issues with either a subclass, or looking to another existing class and seeing if we can fill a hole there. Barring that, another new class.

For example, the Sorcadin - it could be done one of three ways (at least). Subclass for Sorcerer, add in medium/heavy armor prof & martial weapons and give it a smite ability that runs off spell slots or sorcery points. Or, subclass for paladin, change it to use the Sorcerer spell list, and the smite works the same, but maybe does force damage instead of radiant. Or, build a basic Gish class and create a subclass that grants it the appropriate proficiencies and the ability to use spell slots for a smite. Or just make a new class - straight up Magus.

But I feel the best would be to build the most basic Gish class, not worrying about “story”, and then let the subclasses tell the story and handle the advanced mechanics - whether swordmage, duskblade, bladesinger, eldritch knight.

This is what I have been working on. Based on some of my own thoughts, as well as many from here and elsewhere. Unfortunately, I haven’t had the chance to play test any of it yet.
 

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Bolares

Hero
Maybe mechanically, but thematically there's a LOT of invention and gadgetry lore that don't mesh well with the Stabnerd image people prefer.
I think we have already estabilished that gish classes don’t have this unified image. For a lot of people (at least eberron lovers) they fit the bill very well
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
That would kind of match with the original plan for 5e, where the sorcerer was the half caster arcane gish. Just bonded rather than bloodlines.

It could either be done as part of an initiation to an organisation, a ritual, or by random chance. Which leaves it very open in how it happened. It could just be a set of runes infused into you in a training ritual, and forgettable after that (for wanting to ignore the class theme). Or you could have fought an elemental and ended up changed when its unravelling magic went into you instead (for wanting to play into the class theme).

It's not even exclusive with the guardian aspect either.
slightly different per subclass.
I think we have already estabilished that gish classes don’t have this unified image. For a lot of people (at least eberron lovers) they fit the bill very well
but they have the flaw of not really fitting most settings and not being the image in our heads of a warrior of arcane and physical might.
 

slightly different per subclass.

but they have the flaw of not really fitting most settings and not being the image in our heads of a warrior of arcane and physical might.
The problem is that there isn't a communal "the image in our heads". Different people have different images in our heads. They fit the image in some of our heads (especially using Forge Adept rather than Battle Smith) but not others. This is why there are already about half a dozen ways of creating a Gish in 5e
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
The problem is that there isn't a communal "the image in our heads". Different people have different images in our heads. They fit the image in some of our heads (especially using Forge Adept rather than Battle Smith) but not others. This is why there are already about half a dozen ways of creating a Gish in 5e
true but you not thinking inventor normally more a hazy person with a weapon in one hand some armour and magic blasting out the other as most tend to end up that way.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The ranger has had a different identity each edition.
1e: Aragorn with the serial numbers filed off right down to a class feature to let one use Palantir
2e: Two weapon fighter
3.0: Favoured enemy fighter with a little two weapon fighting and basically no class features
3.5: Weak beastmaster (with a beast three levels behind the druid), chooses between specialising in shooting and TWF
4e: Petless woodsy primal killer, chooses between specialising in shooting and TWF and extremely lacking in flavour by 4e standards
5e: Woodsy primal fighter who chooses between specialising in shooting and TWF. The PHB subclasses are a beastmaster with a too weak beast and a near flavourless primal killer (i.e. one for 3.5 and one for 4e)

I see no reason why a gish ranger subclass would be a problem.

The identity for the ranger was always the same: Aragorn Adapted for a High Magic Setting

The issue was always mechanical execution of that identity. Only 0e, 4e, and 5e sort of succeeded.

The Gish is opposite. It is mechanics with no flavor.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Nice find:

''A master of martial maneuvers, the swordsage is a physical adept - a blade wizard whose knowledge of the Sublime Way lets him unlock potent abilities, many of which are overtly supernatural or magical in nature. Depending on which disciplines he chooses to study, a swordsage might be capable of walking through walls, leaping dozens of feet into the air, shattering boulders with a single touch, or even mastering the elements of fire or shadow. Whatever his specific training, a swordsage blurs the line between martial prowess and magical skill.

To you, a sword is not simply a sharpened length of steel. It is the wisdom of the smith, the fire of the forge, and the shouts and ringing blows of your battles. It is your teacher and your student, your life and your death. When your mind is tempered like the blade, no feat of combat prowess is beyond you. You can run on the weapons of your foes, strike an enemy unseen, and flip insouciantly away from the frustrated riposte. Through it all, you seek to understand the secret knowledge of combat. Every blow is a revelation, and every wound an apocalypse. In the end, you and your sword are nothing without each other.

Your training began when you won an apprenticeship with a mentor - either an individual hermit swordsage or an instructor at an ancient swordsage temple dating back to the Battle of the Shadow Tiger Horde. You knew that winning a swordsage apprenticeship would not be easy - that in fact, it would be an ordeal designed to test your worth in some unusual way.

The masters of the Harad Devin Temple are known to make the young boys and girls wishing to undertake training wait in the courtyard for seasons on end, through rain, snow, and the acid cloud storms of reth dekala attacks. Occasionally the masters might send a pot of porridge to the courtyard for the aspirants, and even more occasionally - never more than once per season - they select one child to enter through the Ivory and Horn Gates. The Eighty Empresses have a different selection process for their protégés. The masters bring each young lady separately into the Dressing Room of Opala I, whose walls, mirrors, incense lamps, pots of rouge, and songbird cages are draped with 1,080 shimmering gold, red, pink, orange, and fuchsia silk ribbons. The girl is allowed to stay as long as she likes in the dressing room; she has but to give a signal when she is ready to leave. After she is led away, one ribbon is removed from the room. Then she is brought back. If she can name the color of the ribbon that was removed, she is accepted; otherwise, she is turned away forever.

You and your fellow swordsages adventure for a plethora of reasons. Neither the religious fervor of the crusader nor the honor quest of the warblade causes you to travel the world. More than faith, more than glory, you seek truth. Whether you find that truth in the burbling acid swamps south of the Deluge Jungle, in a screeching jungle harpy roost, or in the gullet of a purple worm, you are driven to uncover it, learn it, and master it.

Rather than rushing into combat with the mindless rage of a barbarian or the foolhardy courage of a warblade, you assess your opponents and try to achieve tactical supremacy through position and martial maneuvers. Your lack of armor proficiency means that you are best suited to a skirmish-style attack - one in which you can use your high mobility to flank an enemy and strike hard and fast. However, you are perfectly capable of standing toe to talon with vrocks and wyverns when necessary, parrying fang with blade and using your martial maneuvers to cut a path through your enemy's front ranks.''

So a Wis-Int based Monk-like with maneuvers ala BM + 4e monks and 1/2 spellcaster.
 


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