D&D 5E The warlock is a "better" wizard than a wizard

[Stalker0]

But they can get ritual magic with tome + the book of ancient secrets invocation

Quite true. Though we need to respect that Invocations are few and precious, your right that if your truly going for the "warlock as wizard" this is a way to do it.

 

[cbwjm]

If I was to play a Basic 5e with only the 4 core classes, this is exactly how I'd create the ''wizard''.

That and having the cleric choose their domain which only affect their extra spell lists and their special Channel Divinity. The archetypes would be HOW you ''cleric'': warpriest, exorcist, miracle worker, spirit talker etc

So you could be a warpriest of the nature domain, or an exorcist with the forge domain, whatever!

Oh damn, I'm not the only one! I alternate between working on a new cleric and a fighter/mage class.

For the cleric, I have archetypes like crusader, mystic, avenger, invoker, shaman. The domains grant the following abilities: bonus spells from level 1, channel divinity at level 2, a blessing at level 10, and a greater bonus at level 20 (I don't like the divine intervention ability part of the cleric either).

 

[Faolyn]

The three extra cantrips from any spell list can offset that quite a bit. It's probably not everyone's cup of tea, though.

Honestly, if I were doing warlocks as the only (arcane) spellcasters in a setting, I'd give them more cantrips to begin with, and let them pick cantrips from any spell list.

I might also be tempted to say that warlocks get three slots at 5th level, four at 11th level, and five at 17th level.

 

[TheSword]

The three extra cantrips from any spell list can offset that quite a bit. It's probably not everyone's cup of tea, though.

Cantrips are certainly ok, and better than firing a crossbow but at 5th level if I’m falling back on a cantrip as my most common spells once you get past 4th level then I think the class can’t really call itself anything more than wizard-like.

If your warlock is casting a spell before combat then they are down to 1 spell. If they want to keep something in the bag like an escape spell they’re down to 1 spell. Worse if a short rest can happen once every 2 fights or so.

There are plenty of easy ways of getting cantrips. I’m not sure why you’d stay longer than 3rd level in the warlock class. It reminds me of the old Birthright magician which was a kind of poor mans wizard intended more as an NPC.

It feels like this thread is an attack on wizards for being “no flavor” @EzekielRaiden which seems like a very nebulous dig. Not to mention something I think a lot of people would disagree with. A wizard is researching continuously, they are a Int based caster with a book of spells and they write more out as they get more experienced.

Rather than saying how great a warlock is, most of the arguments seem to be that wizards are too powerful, Warlocks are less effective which is better… followed up with lots of suggestions for how a warlock could be made more powerful.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I always felt the DnD wizard "thing" was collecting spells into a spellbook so you always have the perfect tool.

The tome warlock, by being able to collect all the rituals, totally fits into this concept.

I agree with the OP that that one particular style of warlock is very wizards feeling indeed.

 

[CleverNickName]

It's not just the quantity of the cantrips, but the variety as well: the pact of the tome will let you choose three cantrips from any spellcaster's list. Depending on your playstyle, that can be a big deal. (Not every cantrip needs to be a weapon, after all.)

 

[Sound of Azure]

I think I will nick the warlock chassis for the caster playbooks for my home dungeon world hack. Nice thread!

 

[Charlaquin]

It's not just the quantity of the cantrips, but the variety as well: the pact of the tome will let you choose three cantrips from any spellcaster's list. Depending on your playstyle, that can be a big deal. (Not every cantrip needs to be a weapon, after all.)

In fact, with Eldritch Blast dealing one of the least resisted damage types and having lots of avenues for enhancement, I would argue it’s usually better not to take attack cantrips with those other slots. 90% of the time EB will be the only attack cantrip you need, may as well get some good utility out of the rest.

 

[Yaarel]

What fantasy characters are you comparing him to? The most famous would be Merlin or Gandalf I suppose. I don't see the Warlock as stacking up next to them.

Merlin is a Bard. Gandalf is a Paladin.

Neither are a D&D Wizard.

 

[Yaarel]

The modern day magician is best seen in Harry Potter and the MCU. In the MCU especially you have mages who have a constant stream of low-level magic and can sometimes really amplify their efforts to cast something particularly powerful.

Gandalf is cool, and Merlin is cool too, but neither one has ever been a model or any spellcaster in D&D. So if D&D wants to emulate mainstream popfiction, the best example is MCU right now, since its hit critical mass, is including a lot more magic in its recent shows, and its next phase is movies is dealing with a lot of magic.

All this to say, the best class that represents this idea is the Warlock. A Warlock could be the MCU version of the Scarlet Witch or Loki pretty easily if you take a step back in terms of abstraction.

So, I agree. The wizard takes up too much magical space anyway. I for one think don't have wizards at my tables anymore, because it was really naughty word with my worldbuilding and my views on magic.

MCU?

Ah. Marvel Comics Universe.