D&D General Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings of Color

[Yaarel]

Around 48 percent of the Human Genome contains DNA that is not strictly human and is instead the remnants of ancient viruses. These viruses result in strings of genetic code that move around the genome and paste themselves into different bits, most a benign but when the body is unbalanced they can result in various diseases.
If we look at Vampirism as a sentient magical virus that purposefully transforms a host then the Dhampir works as genetic lineage, the Dwarf host genome has been rewritten by the Vampire genes to create a new genetic line - that can even reproducer by infecting the blood of others.

Even Golems and Warforged work as Lineages if we are happy to accept constructed virus code existing in fantasy worlds (and if you already accept robot people then why not?)

I think technological explanations can work. Especially for certain settings.

At the same time, I dont want to lose track of "because magic".

Magic has a logic to it all its own, such as function according to archetypes, rules of sympathetic magic, mental intention, and so on.

As long as the technology allows for the magical principles, it is great.



For example, if we look at a vampire, it is a kind of Undead. Actually, it is two kinds of Undead. It is both a ghost and an animated corpse. Indeed, the mind of the ghost is animating the corpse. This ghost has a strong mind, even when death disorients and distorts the desire of this mind to some kind of dying wish.

Essentially, the vampirism has less to do with a virus, and more to do with some specific form of telekinesis.

When a vampire produces a damphir, the mental intention of the vampire results in a transformation of the living body of the damphir.

 

[Yaarel]

Sub-race is similar to ethnicity but when you start associating hard physical traits to ethnicities, it's not great.

I agree.

Because the borders between ethnicities are fluid, there is genetic admixture. In this sense, an ethnicity is moreso a culture and lessso a physical appearance.

I think I would be comfortable with the following definitions for D&D.

Ethnicity = culture + physical variations that have "harmless" mechanical effects.

(So for example, an ethnicity could tend to be Small but this has few mechanical consequences. Likewise, an ethnicity could tend to be Large, but this could be a tag without mechanics of its own. Features relating to Large could be added separately, like length of reach and so on.)

Culture = proficiencies, including background. Prominent classes might also be part of a culture.



The difference between subrace and ethnicity is blurry. The subrace comes with mechanical traits, however some of these traits can be explained by culture (like weapon proficiencies, skills, etcetera). Even dramatic transformations such as darkvision or waterbreathing could by explained by magic, thus resulting from a magical culture, and what was trending in magical research within the culture. For example, the differences between kinds of elves seem to be the results of diverging magical cultures.

Personally I'd use species instead of race and either remove half-whatever or with the big caveat that magic can override biology.

Yeah, exactly. Race means "species" but "with the big caveat that magic can override biology".

In other words, once shapeshifting enters the picture, anything is possible.

I suspect that in the future sub-race will go away and instead use something like Tasha's system with an option list. Every race has some default features and then there's a list of options to choose from or ask your DM for a special variant.

Actually, this is my preference. Each species has default features plus a list of options that the player can choose from.

(Pathfinder does this too?)

I want the options to be substantial, like a list of feats that a player can choose from.

Some elves can teleport, some can etherealize, some can fly, and so on.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Cultural appropriation of the Greeks much? Lol.

Youre not wrong, but Europeans and others have been appropriating Greek culture for over 2000 years, since the days of the Romans.
To be fair, the Greeks themselves strove to introduce Greek culture into other cultures, whence Hellenism. The Greeks who I know are proud of their influence.

I am Norwegian. I feel hesitant when Non-Scandinavians appropriate our heritage.

Okay. Cultural Appropriation. This is a big, touchy topic.

I, too, am Norwegian (and Swedish, and a bit Danish). I'm also American, and was raised in a Christian religion, but my Norwegian ancestry is a not-insignificant part of my identity. My grandparents on my father's side (especially my grandfather) were both super into ancestry and family history, and I can tell you the story of how my family came across the Atlantic to America, were split up due to the immigration system, and although the long-lost siblings were never able to meet each other again in the USA, how their children were able to all come together again and keep in touch so that they'd never be lost again. I can tell you how my many-generations-back-Grandfather (whom I share a middle name with) was converted to Protestantism and how he emigrated to the USA from Norway to avoid religious persecution, while still keeping his Norse heritage a part of his identity. I'm descended from Vikings and Norse Kings (including the amusingly named "Olaf Olafsson", and another, "Olaf, King of Farts"), and my Grandfather would take me to local Norwegian Heritage clubs and make me eat Lutefisk (god, it tastes awful. For those that don't know, it's basically jello made of fish). I grew up on stories about Thor, Loki, Odin, Fenris Wolf, Dwarves, Elves, Einherjar, Valkyries, the Vanir, Aesir, and Jötunns.

I obviously cannot speak for all people of Norse heritage, especially those that still practice the worship of Norse deities, and I definitely cannot speak for members of other cultures and their views of cultural appropriation vs. appreciation, but when I see someone like Rick Riordan using my ancestral culture in his Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard series, I smile with glee. Cultural appropriation is not a concern of mine. Yes, he is gaining wealth and status from the use of my ancestry's culture, which with an Irish name like Riordan, he likely doesn't belong to, but I have no more ownership of my ancestors' culture than he does, and the form that he uses Norse mythology in is largely positive (yes, some of the gods are played for laughs, like Heimdall and Thor, but it's still spreading an overall-positive tone on Norse Mythology and I don't get offended by how those gods are portrayed), which has an overall positive effect on how people view/feel about my ancestral culture. It certainly is a good use of Norse mythology and runes, which is more than I can say for another (very infamous) modern usage of Norse runes and culture. (Obviously the line to determine "is this a bad way to use a part of another culture" isn't "it's fine if they're not white supremacists", I'm just pointing out that there are layers of appropriation and more nuance than it always being "that's my culture! You can't have/use it!")

I love Greek mythology. I feel no guilt using aspects of Greek mythology in my games (Satyrs, Griffons, Pegasi, Dryads and other Nymphs, Centaurs, Drakons, etc), as well as certain parts of other cultures (I have a Gargantuan Couatl in my games called the "Quetzalcouatl" from Aztec/Mayan mythology, I have Tiamat and Bahamut like the base game does, I use many parts of the bits and pieces of other languages that I know to form the languages of my worlds, and so on). IMO, using parts of different cultures is more often Cultural Appreciation than Cultural Appropriation. I typically see something as Cultural Appropriation when they take a part of another culture and claim it as their own without recognizing or appreciating its roots. If I said "I invented Quetzalcoatl, give me money and/or credit in order to use him and all names associated with him", that would be Cultural Appropriation. If I instead said, "Here's a cool D&D celestial creature that is a flying snake with feathers, known as Quetzalcoatl, inspired by the deity from Aztec and Mayan mythologies", IMO, that's not cultural appropriation (or at least not a negative form of it), it's appreciating the amazing and awesome parts of cultures around the world. I would feel the same way if someone took Thor and turned him into an awesome god-hero in a Superhero Cinematic Universe (it would be a Marvel if that happened, wouldn't it?).

That's just my two cents, though.

 

[Yaarel]

Okay. Cultural Appropriation. This is a big, touchy topic.

I, to, am Norwegian (and Swedish, and a bit Danish). I'm also American, and was raised in a Christian religion, but my Norwegian ancestry is a not-insignificant part of my identity. My grandparents on my father's side (especially my grandfather) were both super into ancestry and family history, and I can tell you the story of how my family came across the Atlantic to America, were split up due to the immigration system, and although the long-lost siblings were never able to meet each other again in the USA, how their children were able to all come together again and keep in touch so that they'd never be lost again. I can tell you how my many-generations-back-Grandfather (whom I share a middle name with) was converted to Protestantism and how he emigrated to the USA from Norway to avoid religious persecution, while still keeping his Norse heritage a part of his identity. I'm descended from Vikings and Norse Kings (including the amusingly named "Olaf Olafsson", and another, "Olaf, King of Farts"), and my Grandfather would take me to local Norwegian Heritage clubs and make me eat Lutefisk (god, it tastes awful. For those that don't know, it's basically jello made of fish). I grew up on stories about Thor, Loki, Odin, Fenris Wolf, Dwarves, Elves, Einherjar, Valkyries, the Vanir, Aesir, and Jötunns.

I obviously cannot speak for all people of Norse heritage, especially those that still practice the worship of Norse deities, and I definitely cannot speak for members of other cultures and their views of cultural appropriation vs. appreciation, but when I see someone like Rick Riordan using my ancestral culture in his Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard series, I smile with glee. Cultural appropriation is not a concern of mine. Yes, he is gaining wealth and status from the use of my ancestry's culture, which with an Irish name like Riordan, he likely doesn't belong to, but I have no more ownership of my ancestors' culture than he does, and the form that he uses Norse mythology in is largely positive (yes, some of the gods are played for laughs, like Heimdall and Thor, but it's still spreading an overall-positive tone on Norse Mythology and I don't get offended by how those gods are portrayed), which has an overall positive effect on how people view/feel about my ancestral culture. It certainly is a good use of Norse mythology and runes, which is more than I can say for another (very infamous) modern usage of Norse runes and culture. (Obviously the line to determine "is this a bad way to use a part of another culture" isn't "it's fine if they're not white supremacists", I'm just pointing out that there are layers of appropriation and more nuance than it always being "that's my culture! You can't have/use it!")

I love Greek mythology. I feel no guilt using aspects of Greek mythology in my games (Satyrs, Griffons, Pegasi, Dryads and other Nymphs, Centaurs, Drakons, etc), as well as certain parts of other cultures (I have a Gargantuan Couatl in my games called the "Quetzalcouatl" from Aztec/Mayan mythology, I have Tiamat and Bahamut like the base game does, I use many parts of the bits and pieces of other languages that I know to form the languages of my worlds, and so on). IMO, using parts of different cultures is more often Cultural Appreciation than Cultural Appropriation. I typically see something as Cultural Appropriation when they take a part of another culture and claim it as their own without recognizing or appreciating its roots. If I said "I invented Quetzalcoatl, give me money and/or credit in order to use him and all names associated with him", that would be Cultural Appropriation. If I instead said, "Here's a cool D&D celestial creature that is a flying snake with feathers, known as Quetzalcoatl, inspired by the deity from Aztec and Mayan mythologies", IMO, that's not cultural appropriation (or at least not a negative form of it), it's appreciating the amazing and awesome parts of cultures around the world. I would feel the same way if someone took Thor and turned him into an awesome god-hero in a Superhero Cinematic Universe (it would be a Marvel if that happened, wouldn't it?).

That's just my two cents, though.

I enjoy your post! Your familys preservation of family memory is so Norwegian! So much like my family. And cousins are like siblings.

I agree there is a blurry line between "appreciation" and "appropriation". (Well said!)



An example of the blurriness is the D&D book, Oriental Adventures. I think everyone can agree, it is an example of cultural appreciation. Even many from East Asian nations are happy about the positive interest. Yet, in hindsight especially in current sensibilities, the book can come across as strangely alienating, exoticizing with fixations of specific features without an appreciation of the human whole.



Different cultures seem to be touchy about different things. For example, it seems to me, many Native American tribes are concerned about the trivialization of sacred culture. I dont think Nordic Countries have this concern at all.

For the Nordic Countries (maybe especially Norway?), the concern is about misrepresenting the Norse, Sami, and Finnish heritages. For example, when people go to parties wearing a horned helmet (because of a Wagner opera!), Norwegians think it is humorous and all in good fun. The Norwegians themselves do this. But when people actually start thinking that Viking Era Norwegians wore these kinds of helmets, it starts to become concerning and shades into offensive. The Nordic Countries appreciate when their traditions inspire other people. But. Understand the difference between these inventions and the actual Nordic peoples.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I enjoy your post! Your familys preservation of family memory is so Norwegian! So much like my family. And cousins are like siblings.

Yep. I'm also closer to my second cousins than most people are, having been on several family trips and at family reunions with them.

An example of the blurriness is the D&D book, Oriental Adventures. I think everyone can agree, it is an example of cultural appreciation. Even many from East Asian nations are happy about the positive interest. Yet, in hindsight especially in current sensibilities, the book can come across as strangely alienating, exoticizing with fixations of specific features without an appreciation of the human whole.

Yep. It was attempting to bring part of their culture into the game in a "good" way, but had a lot of stereotypes, offensive terminology, and other issues attached with it (like the exoticizing and alienation that you mentioned).

Different cultures seem to be touchy about different things. For example, it seems to me, many Native American tribes are concerned about the trivialization of sacred culture. I dont think Nordic Countries have this concern at all.

Definitely. I think it mostly boils down to how marginalized the culture has been (and currently is) from a modern viewpoint, which is why no one is saying Mario is the new Tokio. Borrowing from other cultures to make money is always going to be a shade of gray, but it gets worse the more marginalized the ethnic group is and the way that you depict their culture.

For the Nordic Countries (maybe especially Norway?), the concern is about misrepresenting the Norse, Sami, and Finnish heritages. For example, when people go to parties wearing a horned helmet (because of a Wagner opera!), Norwegians think it is humorous and all in good fun. The Norwegians themselves do this. But when people actually start thinking that Viking Era Norwegians wore these kinds of helmets, it starts to become concerning and shades into offensive. The Nordic Countries appreciate when their traditions inspire other people. But. Understand the difference between these inventions and the actual Nordic peoples.

Yep. There are a lot of misunderstandings about Norse mythology and other mythologies like this (as a Greek example, with people always depicting Zeus as a good guy and Hades as a bad guy). Also, horned helmets are just kind of cool, so it's not really anything to take offense at, anyways. (I'm always more puzzled/turned off when people give dwarves Scottish accents.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Surprised in this thread that no-one mentioned Earthsea, where Ursula le Guin saw Ged as Indian and was unimpressed when he was depicted as more white. I would love to see a Bollywood version of the Earthsea trilogy....

Based on a few episodes of Um, Actually, I'd say Earthsea is little known among modern geeks, alas.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I agree there is a blurry line between "appreciation" and "appropriation". (Well said!)

I love tiki bars and wrestle with this issue all the time. There are definitely places I've gone into and said "oh, yikes," and split. I'm slowly working on assembling stuff for a home tiki bar and I know that there are "purists" who would decry my choices for being "too PC." (Luckily for both of us, I'm unlikely to ever let those folks into my house.)

I think it's definitely possible for genuinely well-meaning folks (apparently like Salvatore) to screw up on this. A lot of the white Americans who were "so into" Japan in the 1980s were fetishizing that culture in some fashion, even if they didn't mean anything by it, for instance.

 

[Yaarel]

A lot of the white Americans who were "so into" Japan in the 1980s were fetishizing that culture in some fashion, even if they didn't mean anything by it, for instance.

The Tolkien movies intentionally blended Japanese esthetic with Pan-Euro art nouveau esthetic to represent the elf culture.

The fusion is super beautiful.

It is one of my favorite design approaches.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

The Tolkien movies intentionally blended Japanese esthetic with Pan-Euro art nouveau esthetic to represent the elf culture.

The fusion is super beautiful.

It is one of my favorite design approaches.

And that fight in the second season of the Mandalorian between Ahsoka and that Forgettable-Female-Antagonist is just awesome! Merging the Japanese aesthetic with the Wild West and Space Opera theme was just chef's kiss so good.

 

[Yaarel]

Yep. There are a lot of misunderstandings about Norse mythology and other mythologies like this (as a Greek example, with people always depicting Zeus as a good guy and Hades as a bad guy).

Heh, I laugh when D&D portrays Thor as Chaotic.

He is thunderstorms. His lighting is understood as sometimes punishing a human for breaking an oath. Whence he is an enforcer of oaths and social obligation. His wife is Sif, whose name means "in-law", namely a family created by means of a marriage oath, rather than by means of a bloodline.

Heh, Thor is probably one of the few "Lawful" nature beings!