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D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

FireLance

Legend
Vaguely similar, but shorn of critical parts: Healing Surges vs Hit Dice
See, Healing Surges aren't just "this resource is for healing." They served an additional, vital function: Capping daily healing. Yes, there were a few ways to skirt around this limit a little bit, but those were always in short supply as well. Either they were daily powers (and thus effectively "this power grants an extra surge or two once a day"), or they were addressed by the Bag of Rats rule (no beating up a bag of rats to get infinite HP). Further, almost all healing other than the aforementioned daily healing abilities (like Clerics with the "Cure X Wounds" series) required healing surges to function--even healing potions did! This meant everyone, even a Slayer or some other (sub)class that didn't give two figs about daily powers, had a metaphorical "clock" running down until they had to rest. That 5e removed this is a really, really big difference; HD are a nicety added on top of the critical necessity for magical healing, while HS are the core of the healing system and magic can do little to stretch things any further than surges allow.
I wonder what would be the gameplay effect of requiring the expenditure of Hit Dice to get the full effect of healing word and cure wounds. For example, healing word allows you to spend one Hit Die to regain 1d4 hit points per level of the spell slot expended. If you are out of Hit Dice, you only regain hit points equal to the spellcaster's ability score modifier. Similarly, cure wounds allows you to spend one Hit Die per level of the spell slot expended. If you are out of Hit Dice, you regain 1d4 hit points per level of the spell slot expended.

In this way, it is more resource-efficient if you spend Hit DIce during a short rest (even if you don't have a Constitution bonus, you won't need to use a spell slot). It might even encourage the PCs to take more short rests!
 

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Undrave

Legend
Considering the barbarian seemed fairly popular in 3e, that's a really weird position to hold. What evidence do you have that WotC would have folded the barbarian into the fighter considering they're the ones who reversed 2e doing that when they wrote 3e?
I don't have evidence, but if you consider the flavor of the various Barbarian subclasses you can see that they seem to have a LOT more in common with the 4e Primal Barbarian than the 3e "Dumbass who gets angry" class. The 5e Barbarian owes a lot of its subclasses to the 4e Barbarian and Warden, not necessarily in terms of mechanic, but certainly in its lore. Even a bit of Shaman thrown in, too.

I don't think they would have been able to justify an entire class based solely on the 3.X version of the Barbarian. They probably would have had to plumb the depth of prestige classes and try to coble something together. I'm not versed in all the 3.X prestige class so I guess I can't really speak to that, but I do know the Primal Power Source, and the 5e Barbarian is Primal AF.

Obviously there is no way to know 100%, since in our reality 4e exist and a '5e' without 4e would have been WILDLY different without the lessons thought by 4e. For one thing, I think the way 4e basically burned brightly before crashing is responsible for the simpler design of 5e and its more sparse release schedule.

Personally, I believe that if the 4e Warlord was apprently did not have a 'strong enough identity' to exist as a class and was, supposedly, made into the Battlemaster Fighter, then there is no way in heck you can justify a 3.e Barbarian as a 5e class, aside from blind adherance to tradition.
 

Undrave

Legend
Four-person parties, two short rests per day, mostly fighting one monster at a time, and 6-8 combats per day. So strange.

I think James Wyatt said it best, "The fact is that a fight against a group of monsters is often just more fun than a fight against a single monster. And by “more fun” I mean a lot of things—more dangerous, more tense, more dramatic, more exciting, more dynamic."
Seriously, who the heck fights a SINGLE monster?! That sounds terribly boring and a waste of time. Just two to three dudes standing in front of a lone Ogre going "I attack!" until its dead? THRILLING stuff!
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I wonder what would be the gameplay effect of requiring the expenditure of Hit Dice to get the full effect of healing word and cure wounds. For example, healing word allows you to spend one Hit Die to regain 1d4 hit points per level of the spell slot expended. If you are out of Hit Dice, you only regain hit points equal to the spellcaster's ability score modifier. Similarly, cure wounds allows you to spend one Hit Die per level of the spell slot expended. If you are out of Hit Dice, you regain 1d4 hit points per level of the spell slot expended.

In this way, it is more resource-efficient if you spend Hit DIce during a short rest (even if you don't have a Constitution bonus, you won't need to use a spell slot). It might even encourage the PCs to take more short rests!
It would push most games to default back to the 5 minute work day hard.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Seriously, who the heck fights a SINGLE monster?! That sounds terribly boring and a waste of time. Just two to three dudes standing in front of a lone Ogre going "I attack!" until its dead? THRILLING stuff!
You can easily use the assumed math of 5E monster design, as provided by Blog of Holding, and simply use those numbers for a group of monsters. Split the assumed hp total and average damage total between however many monsters you want. The only difference is it suddenly...magically...fixes the action economy flaws with 5E...and, of course, it makes fights less boring.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think that's where the idea of 4E/2=5E comes from. Because that's almost literally the math. In 4E it's +1/2 level; in 5E it's 1 + 1/4 level. In combat, most 5E character are doing about 1/2 the damage they were in 4E, but monster hp (or rather encounter hp) is about 1/4 what it was in 4E.
Though it's worth noting, due to +Con per level on top of your class HD, 5e characters end up overtaking 4e characters in terms of HP. E.g., take a Bard at 1st level with 14 Con in both editions: the 4e version has 12+Con score = 26 HP, while the 5e version has 8+2 = 10 HP. Huge difference! But then if you scale up to level 20, the 4e Bard gets only 5 HP per level, while the 5e Bard gets 6.5 average (or 7, if using the static HP rules). By level 11 (9 if using static HP), the 5e bard catches up to the 4e one--and exceeds it from there on. If you give both Bards Con 20 instead, they'd start with 32 (4e) vs 13 (5e), but now the 5e Bard gains a whopping 9.5 average (or 10 if static) while the 4e Bard still only gains 5. After merely hitting level 6 (5 if using static HP), the 20 Con 5e Bard overtakes the 20 Con 4e Bard.

(I am of course ignoring the effect of the meagre +1 HP you get at level 11 as a Bard--it makes no practical difference in context.)

The difference becomes more extreme if you look at lower-HD classes, and likewise becomes less extreme for something like Barbarian. But it remains nonetheless: 4e characters start beefier, but are inevitably overtaken by their 5e counterparts. For sufficient Con mod, 5e characters can have 50% more HP than an equal-level 4e character, meaning even if you treat one 4e level as "two-thirds" of a 5e level, the difference remains.

I wonder what would be the gameplay effect of requiring the expenditure of Hit Dice to get the full effect of healing word and cure wounds. For example, healing word allows you to spend one Hit Die to regain 1d4 hit points per level of the spell slot expended. If you are out of Hit Dice, you only regain hit points equal to the spellcaster's ability score modifier. Similarly, cure wounds allows you to spend one Hit Die per level of the spell slot expended. If you are out of Hit Dice, you regain 1d4 hit points per level of the spell slot expended.

In this way, it is more resource-efficient if you spend Hit DIce during a short rest (even if you don't have a Constitution bonus, you won't need to use a spell slot). It might even encourage the PCs to take more short rests!
It's possible that it could be done. But I am leery of doing such a thing without significant testing. Changing the core function of a major subsystem, such as healing, has lots of knock-on effects for a game's experience. It's not easy to predict how that will affect things, particularly since 5e has gone back to the "pay no attention to the man mechanic behind the curtain" style.

Seriously, who the heck fights a SINGLE monster?! That sounds terribly boring and a waste of time. Just two to three dudes standing in front of a lone Ogre going "I attack!" until its dead? THRILLING stuff!
I mean, D&D has a handful of monster ideas (older dragons, beholders, mindflayers, liches) that make sense as solos. I would also say that 4e had plenty of good ideas for how to make a solo interesting. One example I've seen was a DM that made a solo encounter that changed form three times: once at bloodied, then becoming a different creature when dropped to 0, then changing again when that creature got bloodied. Great fight, though I admit part of it was that the creature--a guy named Gregor--was very hammy and memorable on his own.
 

Undrave

Legend
I mean, D&D has a handful of monster ideas (older dragons, beholders, mindflayers, liches) that make sense as solos. I would also say that 4e had plenty of good ideas for how to make a solo interesting. One example I've seen was a DM that made a solo encounter that changed form three times: once at bloodied, then becoming a different creature when dropped to 0, then changing again when that creature got bloodied. Great fight, though I admit part of it was that the creature--a guy named Gregor--was very hammy and memorable on his own.
Solos make sense as BOSS encounter (even there, in 4e you'd populate the arena with a handful of minion to bog down the melee types and some traps as well if possible) but they're not supposed to be the norms. These guys are specifically designed around being solo encounters with powers that reflect that.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
For the warlord, wouldn't you really just need to give the BM a version of the bard's inspiration and cutting words mechanic as a maneuver the BM can learn? You can spend superiority dice to inspire a party member or hinder an enemy to blah blah. Just cut out whatever overlap there is with other BM maneuvers.

For balancing short-rests with long rest classes in 5E, the devs have done us a favor by telling us what they assumed the work day would be. Long rest, 2 fights, short rest, 2 fights, short rest, 2 fights...long rest. With possibly 1-2 fights slipped in that rotation somewhere. So they assumed the short rest classes would at least get 3 uses of their resources per day. So triple everything that gets recharged on a short rest and you're on par with the long rest classes. Doing it that way is a lot easier than 1/3ing the long rest classes.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
For the warlord, wouldn't you really just need to give the BM a version of the bard's inspiration and cutting words mechanic as a maneuver the BM can learn? You can spend superiority dice to inspire a party member or hinder an enemy to blah blah. Just cut out whatever overlap there is with other BM maneuvers.

For balancing short-rests with long rest classes in 5E, the devs have done us a favor by telling us what they assumed the work day would be. Long rest, 2 fights, short rest, 2 fights, short rest, 2 fights...long rest. With possibly 1-2 fights slipped in that rotation somewhere. So they assumed the short rest classes would at least get 3 uses of their resources per day. So triple everything that gets recharged on a short rest and you're on par with the long rest classes. Doing it that way is a lot easier than 1/3ing the long rest classes.
I believe the idea was to make a single mechanic that can help anyone in the party. Trying to make a single maneuver that can boost either hit rolls or saving throws, in a way that's reasonably balanced, is difficult. Cutting Words, for example, is a debuff on a single enemy, not a buff to an ally, and thus harder to explain with purely non-magical effects.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
One aspect of 5e that's very 4e is the Barbarian. I don't think the Barbarian would have kept on being a class of its own and not a Fighter Subclass if 4e hadn't introduced the Primal Power Source to its lore! Without 4e we wouldn't have the Totem Barbarian or the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, the Storm Barbarian or the Path of the Beast one, etc.

They would have just made a Berserker subclass for the fighter and call it a day! You can bet on it.
The 5e Barbarian is really only like the 4e Barbarian in that it’s often powered by some kind of primal spirit magic. In terms of how they actually play, they’re vastly different.
 

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