D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

Vaalingrade

Legend
It is annoying if you treat it as something between you and the real adventure.

You should embrace traveling as part of the adventure. Try not to ignore any rules, keep track of encumbrance and rations, check for weather daily, make proper use of random encounter tables, enforce navigation rules, marching order and make sure to turn Gritty Realism on during travel phases.
But these are all the things that make it obnoxious and an obstacle to adventure to me. Tedious bookkeeping, penalties for the sake of penalties, random encounters and anything gritty are an instant, vehement no for me.

Like, removing all of these things would make travel more fun for me both as player and as DM. Whenever we have to go somewhere, it's like 'okay, captain's turned on the 'No Fun' sign.
 

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They did go a bit overboard though. It's shouldn't be either "deal with all this travel stuff" or "make it irrelevant" in one each non-choice. It should go from being difficult, to slightly less difficult, to fairly easy, to irrelevant. It shouldn't go from difficult to irrelevant in one go. Like switching outlander and the ranger to advantage on those checks instead of auto success. Even that would be a great change.

That's bog standard 5E travel for you. If you have someone with outlander, you cannot get lost and you automatically have food. If you have a ranger, you get there in half the time without there ever being the possibility of becoming lost. A wizard with tiny hut, you get to sleep in comfort and style with no worry about environmental concerns or even wandering monsters. To say nothing of other spells like goodberry, create water, create food and water, etc. 5E is designed to skip over travel. They shouldn't have eaten up the page count by including it it's so trivial.
People keep bringing up ranger and outlander, but I would like to point out that foraging and navigation are only a small part of what makes wilderness exploration engaging.
Also, you could just not allow outlander as a background and only use the ranger from Tasha's Cauldron.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
It's not bog standard anything. It's a choice to de-emphasize travel and the potential for exploration that's there.
Yes, and when that choice is universally made, it becomes the bog standard. In the seven years 5E has existed there's not been a single group I've played with or ran for that didn't include someone with outlander, a ranger, or someone with tiny hut, the food & water spells, or some grand combination of all of them. It's also a choice to put your high stat in the main stat for your class, but it's so ubiquitous that it's not even really a "choice". Likewise with picking a race that has an ability bonus that helps your class. When it's so universally made it's no longer a "choice". Which is why they put customizing your lineage in Tasha's. Now players feel empowered to not just pick a race/class combo that gets them max ability scores for their class...because any race choice they make will still get them those max ability score bonuses. That's how much of a non-choice that's been. Same with travel. It's such a non-choice that literally everyone does it. Almost in the same way all groups just happen to have a healer. It's a "choice". But it's so universal it's a non-choice. You either make this choice or some part of the game sucks. That's not a meaningful choice.
People keep bringing up ranger and outlander, but I would like to point out that foraging and navigation are only a small part of what makes wilderness exploration engaging.
A travelogue isn't engaging. The risks of wilderness travel and exploration are what makes it engaging. Without those risks, there's nothing to be engaged by. I like sandboxes and hexcrawls, so yeah, I get that wilderness exploration and travel are more than just navigation, travel time, and foraging. But those are interesting, too. It bothers me that they're basically removed in 5E.
Also, you could just not allow outlander as a background and only use the ranger from Tasha's Cauldron.
I make outlander advantage on survival checks to navigate and forage. And I do just that with rangers and Tasha's.
 


Yes, and when that choice is universally made, it becomes the bog standard. In the seven years 5E has existed there's not been a single group I've played with or ran for that didn't include someone with outlander, a ranger, or someone with tiny hut, the food & water spells, or some grand combination of all of them. It's also a choice to put your high stat in the main stat for your class, but it's so ubiquitous that it's not even really a "choice". Likewise with picking a race that has an ability bonus that helps your class. When it's so universally made it's no longer a "choice". Which is why they put customizing your lineage in Tasha's. Now players feel empowered to not just pick a race/class combo that gets them max ability scores for their class...because any race choice they make will still get them those max ability score bonuses. That's how much of a non-choice that's been. Same with travel. It's such a non-choice that literally everyone does it. Almost in the same way all groups just happen to have a healer. It's a "choice". But it's so universal it's a non-choice. You either make this choice or some part of the game sucks. That's not a meaningful choice.

A travelogue isn't engaging. The risks of wilderness travel and exploration are what makes it engaging. Without those risks, there's nothing to be engaged by. I like sandboxes and hexcrawls, so yeah, I get that wilderness exploration and travel are more than just navigation, travel time, and foraging. But those are interesting, too. It bothers me that they're basically removed in 5E.

I make outlander advantage on survival checks to navigate and forage. And I do just that with rangers and Tasha's.
The risk comes with Gritty Realism. I only use that for travel.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Yes, and when that choice is universally made, it becomes the bog standard. In the seven years 5E has existed there's not been a single group I've played with or ran for that didn't include someone with outlander, a ranger, or someone with tiny hut, the food & water spells, or some grand combination of all of them. It's also a choice to put your high stat in the main stat for your class, but it's so ubiquitous that it's not even really a "choice". Likewise with picking a race that has an ability bonus that helps your class. When it's so universally made it's no longer a "choice". Which is why they put customizing your lineage in Tasha's. Now players feel empowered to not just pick a race/class combo that gets them max ability scores for their class...because any race choice they make will still get them those max ability score bonuses. That's how much of a non-choice that's been. Same with travel. It's such a non-choice that literally everyone does it. Almost in the same way all groups just happen to have a healer. It's a "choice". But it's so universal it's a non-choice. You either make this choice or some part of the game sucks. That's not a meaningful choice.
Because your anecdotal experience is evidence of universality? That's garbage. There are plenty of players who pick races whose ability bonuses don't necessarily help their class - they pick them because they help portray the character they envision, even if they aren't maximizing their optimization. Just as choosing to engage in activities in play that you personally don't find engaging but they do is about playing the game they (not you) envision for their game (not yours).
 

Undrave

Legend
My point is that 5E allows the players to decide whether they want to engage with the resource management [ETA: of healing surges/hit dice] or not. I'm not claiming that makes it perfect--clearly, if you really enjoy the resource management option, it's not going to support that as robustly. I'm just saying that flexibility has its benefits.
At the end of the day, if you were a fan of 4e Healing Surge, that doesn't automatically make you a fan of 5e Hit Dice just because they can also be used to heal on a short rest. That's basically the LEAST interesting thing Healing Surges do.
 

jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
At the end of the day, if you were a fan of 4e Healing Surge, that doesn't automatically make you a fan of 5e Hit Dice just because they can also be used to heal on a short rest. That's basically the LEAST interesting thing Healing Surges do.
I get that. Just saying that for those who don't share your enthusiasm, I think it's not a bad thing that they have a path to opt out of it.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
No, the feats in 4e do very little by themselves. On the other hand, you get one feat every two levels and one extra feat at lvl 11 and 21... It makes a total of 17 feats at max level.

My analysis is this is another 2x elements ie the feats in 5e are analogous to two feats in 4e. (level compression evens them out so that the same amount of character empowerment/customization can be accomplished across the character lifetime)
 


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