Anyone Else Tired of The Tyranny of Novelty?

[TheSword]

How is there a lack of alternatives? Those "grounded" adventures were the vast bulk of the early release and still form the bulk of adventures released by either WotC or Paizo.

You are right that they were the bulk of early releases but as time goes on they get more and more out there.

Good for Cubicle 7 then. It's worth noting, however, that D&D-brand fantasy is NOT Warhammer-brand fantasy.

The adventures I reference could easily be dropped into any fantasy setting. A doppleganger in a noble’s house, a legendary bandit returning to life, a murder mystery. These could be set in Waterdeep, Daggerford or any city. Warhammer is irrelevant. In fact i heavily suspect the writers had the ideas before signing on to the setting itself.

I'm not sure if I would call "the City of Doors" more recognizable or grounded. It's a floating city shaped like a ring. It was intentionally made to be off-kilter from the norm. The difference is that you now register it as normal as primarily a result of time.

The architecture is not relevant. In a setting with Hellscapes, Iceworlds and everything in between it’s the largely humanoid city that formed the core of the setting. People want the recognizable. The length of time a person has been aware of Planescape is irrelevant. It was the case since day one of the setting.

Why do you keep referencing "continuity and style" as if these adventures were somehow destroying/ruining it for D&D?

They are are inhibiting the continuity and style by producing ever more esoteric works that don’t fit so well into existing familiar expectations. I don’t mind leaving my comfort zone, I just sometimes I like the classics.

 

[Aldarc]

You are right that they were the bulk of early releases but as time goes on they get more and more out there.

Or simply more "fantastical."

The adventures I reference could easily be dropped into any fantasy setting. A doppleganger in a noble’s house, a legendary bandit returning to life, a murder mystery. These could be set in Waterdeep, Daggerford or any city. Warhammer is irrelevant. In fact i heavily suspect the writers had the ideas before signing on to the setting itself.

Then play Warhammer Fantasy RP instead.

The architecture is not relevant. In a setting with Hellscapes, Iceworlds and everything in between it’s the largely humanoid city that formed the core of the setting. People want the recognizable. The length of time a person has been aware of Planescape is irrelevant. It was the case since day one of the setting.

Sure, but I would not call it "grounded." Again, Sigil was intentionally made eccentric and non-standard from a standard fantasy town or city. I don't know why you are ignoring that point.

They are are inhibiting the continuity and style by producing ever more esoteric works that don’t fit so well into existing familiar expectations. I don’t mind leaving my comfort zone, I just sometimes I like the classics.

How? What continuity are you even talking about? You are saying this as if it were somehow a self-evident truth about these adventures or lore.

 

[TheSword]

Or simply more "fantastical."

You can use whatever adjective you like to describe non-grounded.

Then play Warhammer Fantasy RP instead.

No thanks, because when it comes to theme and setting style, deciding between varieties of D&D spin off is irrelevant. Instead what I do is find myself converting more an more adventures from earlier editions and other systems because WOC isn’t producing what I want. So I explain why in @doctorbadwolf ’s thread about the tyranny of novelty.”

Sure, but I would not call it "grounded." Again, Sigil was intentionally made eccentric and non-standard from a standard fantasy town or city. I don't know why you are ignoring that point.

All things are relative. Compared to the rest of the planes Sigil is grounded.

How? What continuity are you even talking about? You are saying this as if it were somehow a self-evident truth about these adventures or lore.

The continuity of style. That if WOC sets the Sword Coast as its baseline campaign setting for D&D (or Greyhawk, or Mystara) it should make sure at least every other adventure they produce is suitable for that kind of setting… even if it is located elsewhere and able to be relocated.

I hope you can see the difference between Ghosts of Saltmarsh that can be picked up and relocated on any coastline (good) vs Icewind Dale that can’t be realistically moved without dramatically changing the setting (problematic). No adventures like Avernus and Wild don’t count when they spend a token time in the setting and then go off down the rabbit hole. Like I said produce those adventures but look after the baseline setting too.

I don’t expect WOC to ask my permission to publish they can do what they like. I just think it’s sad that novelty takes over from classic done well.

 

[billd91]

Whether a ‘rule’ or technique is original or not is a topic best left to smarter people than me.

I just see D&D and Paizo becoming ever wackier in their pursuit of novel adventures. What were Paizo’s last three? PC Policemen and women; a gladiatorial tournament and next magic school faculty. God forbid we see the beauty of something like Curse of the Crimson Throne again.

Well, they've done Curse of the Crimson Throne. Twice. And while it was fantastic, how often do you need to run something like that? Plus, it had plenty of novelty in and of itself. A chapter about a plague in the city? Travel into a grassfire blasted badlands?
As a publisher trying to serve a gaming public with fairly diverse tastes, Paizo probably feels pressure to maximize its AP line's versatility and try to serve a wider variety of tastes - so they need to explore new territory, new settings and plots. If they don't, they lose segments of their market who aren't being served at all.

 

[TheSword]

Well, they've done Curse of the Crimson Throne. Twice. And while it was fantastic, how often do you need to run something like that? Plus, it had plenty of novelty in and of itself. A chapter about a plague in the city? Travel into a grassfire blasted badlands?
As a publisher trying to serve a gaming public with fairly diverse tastes, Paizo probably feels pressure to maximize its AP line's versatility and try to serve a wider variety of tastes - so they need to explore new territory, new settings and plots. If they don't, they lose segments of their market who aren't being served at all.

That’s a good example of a campaign that could be picked up and dropped into any city with an authority figure like king or queen. Hell, You could set it in Waterdeep without blinking… in fact that is an awesome idea! With Leael Silverhand instead of Queen Illeosa.

That’s what I’m talking about. Adventures that I can easily slot into my own campaign world of choice and link in existing player knowledge and increase a sense of wonder and relationship with the world?! Priceless… I’d play those kinds of adventures all the time.

 

[billd91]

That’s a good example of a campaign that could be picked up and dropped into any city with an authority figure like king or queen. Hell, You could set it in Waterdeep without blinking… in fact that is an awesome idea! With Leael Silverhand instead of Queen Illeosa.

That’s what I’m talking about. Adventures that I can easily slot into my own campaign world of choice and link in existing player knowledge and increase a sense of wonder and relationship with the world?! Priceless… I’d play those kinds of adventures all the time.

And you can't do that with playing cops, gladiators, or faculty of a magical academy? I'm pretty sure you can do that in Waterdeep as well.

 

[TheSword]

And you can't do that with playing cops, gladiators, or faculty of a magical academy? I'm pretty sure you can do that in Waterdeep as well.

The other element is that players have got to want it too. Let’s be honest a cops adventure path is a pretty specific schtick and may well not be what people are looking for when they sit down to play D&D. Teachers in a magical school would be the same. A campaign based on a gladiatorial tournament - maybe. Again it sounds extremely specific to me.

Maybe every group would love that stuff and it’s just me who it isn’t to the taste of. But it sounds very specific to me. The reviews I’ve seen of the AP would seem to bear that out.

 

[Aldarc]

You can use whatever adjective you like to describe non-grounded.

"Fantasy" seems like an appropriate adjective to describe "fantasy adventure" roleplaying games.

No thanks, because when it comes to theme and setting style, deciding between varieties of D&D spin off is irrelevant. Instead what I do is find myself converting more an more adventures from earlier editions and other systems because WOC isn’t producing what I want. So I explain why in @doctorbadwolf ’s thread about the tyranny of novelty.”

I don't see the problem then. Thankfully for you, the "liberation of stagnation" means that you have plenty of older materials to draw on. There is also plenty of designers in the OSR community designing the sort of "grounded settings" that you likely enjoy too.

All things are relative. Compared to the rest of the planes Sigil is grounded.

And compared to the sort of settings you are asking for, Sigil isn't grounded in the slightest, and that fact seems more relevant.

The continuity of style. That if WOC sets the Sword Coast as its baseline campaign setting for D&D (or Greyhawk, or Mystara) it should make sure at least every other adventure they produce is suitable for that kind of setting… even if it is located elsewhere and able to be relocated.

So like setting an adventure in Icewind Dale, which is in the northern part of the Sword Coast?

I hope you can see the difference between Ghosts of Saltmarsh that can be picked up and relocated on any coastline (good) vs Icewind Dale that can’t be realistically moved without dramatically changing the setting (problematic).

Actually I can't see the difference. It seems like an absolute cake walk to use Rime of the Frostmaiden in some other D&D setting. I even contemplated using it a game set in the northern parts of the Nentir Vale, like in the town of either Nenlast or Winterhaven. Would it really be that difficult to use Rime of the Frostmaiden in Eberron, Greyhawk, or Mystara? What am I missing about the adventure that makes it difficult to set elsewhere? The fact that it's cold? Puh-leeze.

No adventures like Avernus and Wild don’t count when they spend a token time in the setting and then go off down the rabbit hole. Like I said produce those adventures but look after the baseline setting too.

That's awfully convenient for your argument that they don't count. Because again, I could easily use them in a game set in the Nentir Vale or a number of other settings.

And you can't do that with playing cops, gladiators, or faculty of a magical academy? I'm pretty sure you can do that in Waterdeep as well.

Yeah. The Paizo cops adventure takes place in Absolom, which is like Golarion's Rome/Jerusalem megacity. I don't see how that wouldn't work in Waterdeep or any given Sword Coast city-state. Also, the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors is the primary magic school in Waterdeep.

 

[TheSword]

That's awfully convenient for your argument that they don't count. Because again, I could easily use them in a game set in the Nentir Vale or a number of other settings.

You could, and they would have little or nothing to do with Nentir Vale if the action took them too another plane after lvl 1. Kind of like saying Curse of Strahd is a Nentir Vale adventure because the opening hook can be set there.

 

[Aldarc]

You could, and they would have little or nothing to do with Nentir Vale if the action took them too another plane after lvl 1. Kind of like saying Curse of Strahd is a Nentir Vale adventure because the opening hook can be set there.

4e did begin the idea of the Dark Domains being in the Shadowfell, so that would be easy enough to transition a game from the Vale to Barovia.