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D&D 5E Can 5e Be Mythic?

OK, when I read the OP I was thinking how do you do a Folklore setting in D&D and then I read @doctorbadwolf 's clarification here, I shifted to thinking about how D&D can do a mythic setting. I think these are different things.

Folklore:
  • Often the protagonists are commoners or from a humble background
  • Protagonist survive mostly on wit and luck.
    • They find the magical item
    • They trick the witch
  • Magic is strictly NPC and ritual in nature, maybe with some curses thrown in
Mythic:
  • The protagonists is special: noble blood, a king, a prince, or a demigod.
  • Protagonist survives by their superior strength or skill or wit or some combination of those. But primarily the protagonist is superior to everyone else.
    • They overpower the minotaur
    • They slay the dragon
  • Magic is typically NPC, but they may have magic in their blood

So, how can D&D do these. Well...

Folklore D&D 5e:
  • No or very limited magic using classes, only ritual magic
    • May need further magic rule revisions depending on how much you want rules vs roleplaying magic.
  • Magic users are generally NPCs not players.
  • Start at level 0
  • Most NPC are low level/CR
  • PCs are commoners, pick suitable backgrounds (no nobles or knights)
  • Every one gets halfling luck and the lucky feat
  • I think the rest is basically down to how you roleplay the characters and NPCs to provide the folklore feel, but you could add more rules if you want.
Mythic D&D 5e:
  • PC are special, select suitable backgrounds
  • PCs start with higher stats and/or exaggerate what stats can do (ex. Carry capacity might = your strength score x your strength modifier cubed, or 2,500lbs at 20 instead of 300lbs)
  • PCs start with a supernatural gift
    • This could be a bonus feat (this could be tailored to they type of mythic you want)
    • This could be a supernatural gift like in the DMG or Theros
    • This could be an epic boon
    • This could be a combination of all of the above, just depends how "mythic" you want to get
  • PCs have a mythic path that provide goals, but also benefits. I would use the Theros deity champions as framework, but not require piety, but instead tie the benefits to story elements.
  • NPCs are mostly low level /CR (to emphasis how special the PC is)
  • I think the rest is basically down to how you roleplay the characters and NPCs to provide the folklore feel, but you could add more rules if you want.
 

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dave2008

Legend
I’ve been reading up on Heroes of Tara supplement that seeks to make a 5e game that is mythic in the vein of Irish mythology and folk lore, and I wonder just how mythical you can make a 5e game without a ton of new rules.

Has anyone here run a 5e game that hewed closer to folklore and mythology than D&D normally does?
I have not run a game specifically based around folklore, but I believe our default setting isn't to far off. I have run some games based loosely on Greek & Norse style mythology, but not Irish mythology , which, despite my ancestry, I don't know to much about.
 

dave2008

Legend
I think actually that is a huge part of what DnD does to directly sprint away from mythic storytelling. Everything in DnD has a keyword, a category, a clear and concise history, and easily parsed relationships to other parts of the multiverse. I think that's part of why people change the cosmology so much when making a more folk-tale or mythical campaign, so that players can more easily think in terms of mystery, the unknown, etc.

Myth and folklore isn't like dnd, in that context. What is a dvergr in Norse folklore and myth? I made a whole thread that touched on this recently, but...the answer is not especially clear. Is a dwarf actually just a "dark" elf? Is it more like a troll? Does it depend on the character of an individual supernatural being? What is an alfar? Nature spirit? Ancestor Spirit? Small folk of the mound? Trickster? Helper? Minor god?

I think that a big part of mythic worldbuilding is to not clearly define things like that. Even sometimes leaving things that players directly use ambiguous or open to interpretation.
I guess I separate D&D from its various settings. I've never run published setting, but I've play D&D for 30+ years. From my perspective it is pretty easy to create a world of mystery in the setting lore and such. The bigger issue is how do you integrate magic? Magic in myths and folklore is much more mysterious and slow (non-combat magic). I think you can do that in D&D, but it takes more work and you have to deal with people crying about the loss of their caster classes.
 

dave2008

Legend
Pauliina_Hannuniemi_-_Knight_and_Phlegm_Wyrm_1024x1024.jpg


Dolmenwood does folklore d&d but not "epic mythic"

The Winter's Daughter scenario is for both OSE and d&d5. I've run a bit of Dolmenwood, but using non-d&d rules entirely.
Thank you for the link, it looks very interesting. I do have one question, you said you have run Dolmenwood, but the download able PDF on the website didn't have any rules in it, just some inspirational lore (it is really good at that). I don't think this is enough for me to run a campaign in this setting. Is there more somewhere else? The linked page implied the core books are not release yet. Just curious as would like to know more about it. Thanks!
 


Yaarel

He-Mage
"Folkbelief" mainly refers to the beliefs that various sociologists collected during the late 1800s. The motivation to collect this data tends to be nationalistic, ethnographic, whence "folk", and Romantic, in the sense of a reaction against the rationality of the Enlightenment. There is also a distinction between a "belief", which is mainly an eyewitness encounter with a paranormal phenomenon, versus a "tale" which is mainly a genre in the form of a complete story. The beliefs are understood to be true. The tales are often fictional elaborations of an encounter. While the 1800s typifies the kinds of phenomena that each folk encountered, the encounters themselves continued into the 1900s. I assume still happen today. I know Norwegians who are alive today who have seen a Troll, including Huldrefolk. Iceland too reports about analogous encounters. Normal sane people can have these kinds of experiences at some point in their life. (Personally, I make sense of the reallife reports of sightings, by associating apparitions of saints, ghosts, UFO encounters, nature beings, and so on, as a similar phenomenon that adjusts from culture to culture. I assume they are psychological subjective events but that are meaningful and informative for the wider community.)

The protagonist of the folk "tales" tends to be of a humble background. For example, "Ash-lad" and "Cinder-ella" are youth who daydream by the fireplace, while the rest of the family works ambitiously hard. It is precisely ones undervalued intuitive nature that allows this protagonist to navigate successfully thru realm of magic.

In folkbelief, magic tends to be ubiquitous, improvisational, and whimsical or strange. (This is also true in animistic worldviews generally. If you saw the tv series, Tales from the Loop, its sensibility seems remarkably animistic, despite it being a technological environment that is taking on a life of its own. Both hope and tragedy are part of the story of magic.)

If I recall correctly, Karl Jung in his cross-cultural (mainly Swiss) survey of tales about magic, describes a rule of three. One amount of magic is good. Two amounts of magic is better. But three amounts of magic is dangerous. Either the third use of magic will destroy the story and revert back to the original offering of the first amount of magic for some one else. Or else, a fourth amount of magic will save the day, rescue the hero, and accomplish the hopes of the hero.



For a D&D adventure story conveying folkbelief, it seems a helpful model to think of four big magical events, that the player characters eventually come across. The third one is a real challenge that can go very wrong. The fourth one often resolves the challenge in a surprising way, often according to the "morale of the story" − the ethical point that the story is making.

Improvisational magic is important in a folkbelief D&D setting. Similar to using Athletics/Acrobatics (a single skill I call Gymnastics) to do physical "stunts", I also use Arcana to do magical "stunts". Mainly, an Arcana "stunt" is an attempt to improvisationally modify a spell during spellcasting. For example, as a player, I modified a damage-dealing wind spell, to just do the wind without the damage, to push a crowd of bystanders out of the way of oncoming danger. If stunt failed, I could have seriously injured the crowds myself, but the stunt succeeded and they made it out safely. For us, Arcana uses whatever ability is the casting ability, whether Int, Wis, or Cha. Different approaches to magic approach magic differently, but equally competently. It is also possible to do a stunt to improvise a minor one-off cantrip-like effect. The DM determines the suitability and difficulty of a new stunt. I havent run into problems with spamming, but if I did, I would say, the same effect cannot be done twice in the same day or the same week, or for some effects, the same year or century. Using skill checks for stunts is a great way to for each character to employ magic improvisationally.

Folkbelief also has big magic, like floating cities, a queen giving birth to a draconic serpent, a grave becoming a portal into the realm of the dead, a sleep-enchantment broken only by the kiss of true love, and so on. For these kinds of story elements, use D&D rituals. Rituals can be almost anything. Rituals can have any effect and any requirement. Think of examples from folkbelief to determine the requirements of a ritual. For example, in one story, monarchs lack an heir and resort to magic to conceive. Finding someone who knows how to do magic is the first use of magic. Eventually this mage tells them to go to their garden and pick one white rose and one red rose. If they eat the white rose, their heir will lead their citizens in a time of great wealth, and if they eat the red rose, the heir will become a great conqueror of many nations. Wanting the best for their citizens, the monarchs eat both. They give birth to a serpent, a dragon, as their heir. For D&D, these are series of rituals.

A useful D&D spell is Mordenkeinens Magnificent Mansion. The nature being casts it by means of a "ritual". It allows player characters to enter the weird space of a nature being, like inside solid rock, or to enjoy a feast beneath the ocean surface. The esthetics of the Mansion are thematic, like ale that looks bluish clear like seawater with sea foam, dinner plates of fish and seaweed, and so on.



Folklore D&D 5e:
  • Magic users are generally NPCs not players.
Folk tales rarely make the mage the protagonist. But it happens. In any case, the mages normally exist in the story, and the story can easily be about the mage, rather than about the warrior or the rogue.

Since the days of Gilgamesh into King Arthur, the jock has tended to be the hero of the story, not the nerd.

But stories like Harry Porter reflect a global shift in assumptions, making the technological Merlin archetype the center of the story, rather than the Arthur archetype.

D&D can and should encourage the mage to be one of the player characters.

And sometimes, the hero of a traditional saga or tale actually is a mage!
 
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I’ve been reading up on Heroes of Tara supplement that seeks to make a 5e game that is mythic in the vein of Irish mythology and folk lore, and I wonder just how mythical you can make a 5e game without a ton of new rules.

Has anyone here run a 5e game that hewed closer to folklore and mythology than D&D normally does?
I don't find PHB D&D terribly mythical, with the arguable exception of the Warlock. To me myths are simple, larger than life, and high concept.

The fighters and to a lesser extent rogues are unlikely to pull things of mythic heroes - legendary at most. And the casters have too much too much specified in the way of spells to work well.

Tasha's is another matter; the Rune Knight, the Psychic Warrior (with larger than life force), the Soulknife (a thief good enough to steal the thoughts out of your head), and the Phantom all feel pretty mythic to me. So does the Genie.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
"Can"? Yeah, probably.

"Can easily"? Can RAW? No, probably not, depending on class choice and such. @Neonchameleon has the right of it. Many of the classes are weighed down by mundane presentation or limitations. I mean, it takes a Cleric until 10th level simply to get special divine intervention from their diety--that's bread-and-butter mythic behavior, not something that should be hiding behind "wait until you're many levels in before you can even try, and fail (100-level)% of the time."

Ironically, I actually feel like the Sorcerer, despite being in principle more limited than the Wizard, is closer to mythic in character. Having a powerful bloodline is a very classic mythic trope, and bending the laws of magic to your will is also reasonably mythic in scope; where the hermetic spellcaster is scientific, the sorcerer is T-posing to assert their dominance over reality. They get the wings a bit late, and you'd probably want to expand the metamagic options to give them more of a "cunning trickster-mage" vibe, but honestly you could do a LOT worse than even a bog-standard Draconic Sorcerer.
 

Yaarel

He-Mage
I view D&D classes as fighting styles, whether employing swords or spells as military technology.

Class spells are tightly packaged weapons and tools.

Just like the sword of a fighter or rogue is normally unable to do the narrative-altering effects of myth and folkbelief, so too the spell of a bard or a wizard is normally unable to do the effects.

The big magic can normally exist as rituals, such as to make a city float.

Meanwhile, a fighter should be able to use downtime research and quests for Blacksmiths tools to forge a magic sword. A wizard can locate or invent a new noncombat ritual. And backgrounds and feats at first level can tap into mythic themes. A human can be preternaturally strong if using a feat to boost Strength along with an outsized carrying capacity. And so on.

I feel the only thing that gets in the way of storytelling, is the assumptions of the Forgotten Realms setting.
 

TheSword

Legend
I would recommend two 3pp that are both campaign books.

Tales of the Old Margreve is about a legendary forest and has a full campaign related to that. It has the feel of the old Brothers Grimm mixed with fae and I think you would get a lot of mileage for an Irish folklore campaign.

Another mythic product is Odyssey of the Dragon lords that typifies a lot of the advice in this thread. Each player has an epic destiny that ties into mythical characters and locations in the world. As an example of how to tie in characters to the setting it’s awesome.
 

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