D&D 5E Can 5e Be Mythic?

[doctorbadwolf]

OK, when I read the OP I was thinking how do you do a Folklore setting in D&D and then I read @doctorbadwolf 's clarification here, I shifted to thinking about how D&D can do a mythic setting. I think these are different things.

Folklore:

• Often the protagonists are commoners or from a humble background
• Protagonist survive mostly on wit and luck.
  • They find the magical item
  • They trick the witch
• Magic is strictly NPC and ritual in nature, maybe with some curses thrown in

Mythic:

• The protagonists is special: noble blood, a king, a prince, or a demigod.
• Protagonist survives by their superior strength or skill or wit or some combination of those. But primarily the protagonist is superior to everyone else.
  • They overpower the minotaur
  • They slay the dragon
• Magic is typically NPC, but they may have magic in their blood

So, how can D&D do these. Well...

Folklore D&D 5e:

• No or very limited magic using classes, only ritual magic
  • May need further magic rule revisions depending on how much you want rules vs roleplaying magic.
• Magic users are generally NPCs not players.
• Start at level 0
• Most NPC are low level/CR
• PCs are commoners, pick suitable backgrounds (no nobles or knights)
• Every one gets halfling luck and the lucky feat
• I think the rest is basically down to how you roleplay the characters and NPCs to provide the folklore feel, but you could add more rules if you want.

Mythic D&D 5e:

• PC are special, select suitable backgrounds
• PCs start with higher stats and/or exaggerate what stats can do (ex. Carry capacity might = your strength score x your strength modifier cubed, or 2,500lbs at 20 instead of 300lbs)
• PCs start with a supernatural gift
  • This could be a bonus feat (this could be tailored to they type of mythic you want)
  • This could be a supernatural gift like in the DMG or Theros
  • This could be an epic boon
  • This could be a combination of all of the above, just depends how "mythic" you want to get
• PCs have a mythic path that provide goals, but also benefits. I would use the Theros deity champions as framework, but not require piety, but instead tie the benefits to story elements.
• NPCs are mostly low level /CR (to emphasis how special the PC is)
• I think the rest is basically down to how you roleplay the characters and NPCs to provide the folklore feel, but you could add more rules if you want.

Those changes could definitely do the trick, yeah. I do think that you can have some spellcasting for PCs without losing the folk-lore or mythic vibe, but it will depend on the group and how much they're sticklers for specifics.

I have not run a game specifically based around folklore, but I believe our default setting isn't to far off. I have run some games based loosely on Greek & Norse style mythology, but not Irish mythology , which, despite my ancestry, I don't know to much about.

I guess I separate D&D from its various settings. I've never run published setting, but I've play D&D for 30+ years. From my perspective it is pretty easy to create a world of mystery in the setting lore and such. The bigger issue is how do you integrate magic? Magic in myths and folklore is much more mysterious and slow (non-combat magic). I think you can do that in D&D, but it takes more work and you have to deal with people crying about the loss of their caster classes.

Sure, the worldbuilding is a huge part of it, but some of the worldbuilding is built right into the class and race entries, so I don't think it's all that easy for anyone but us experienced DMs.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I would recommend two 3pp that are both campaign books.

Tales of the Old Margreve is about a legendary forest and has a full campaign related to that. It has the feel of the old Brothers Grimm mixed with fae and I think you would get a lot of mileage for an Irish folklore campaign.

Another mythic product is Odyssey of the Dragon lords that typifies a lot of the advice in this thread. Each player has an epic destiny that ties into mythical characters and locations in the world. As an example of how to tie in characters to the setting it’s awesome.

Great picks, for sure. I've been meaning to pick both of those up.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

"Can"? Yeah, probably.

"Can easily"? Can RAW? No, probably not, depending on class choice and such. @Neonchameleon has the right of it. Many of the classes are weighed down by mundane presentation or limitations. I mean, it takes a Cleric until 10th level simply to get special divine intervention from their diety--that's bread-and-butter mythic behavior, not something that should be hiding behind "wait until you're many levels in before you can even try, and fail (100-level)% of the time."

Ironically, I actually feel like the Sorcerer, despite being in principle more limited than the Wizard, is closer to mythic in character. Having a powerful bloodline is a very classic mythic trope, and bending the laws of magic to your will is also reasonably mythic in scope; where the hermetic spellcaster is scientific, the sorcerer is T-posing to assert their dominance over reality. They get the wings a bit late, and you'd probably want to expand the metamagic options to give them more of a "cunning trickster-mage" vibe, but honestly you could do a LOT worse than even a bog-standard Draconic Sorcerer.

I don't mind stuff like Divine Intervention being so limited. It's not like the player character can't earn divine intervention through play. The class feature Divine Intervention is just a thing they can call upon to get what amounts to a wish.

And the fighter/rogue stuff isn't even a rules problem, its a presentation/fluff problem.

The rules don't tell you what you can or cannot do with skill checks. If the group agrees to a set of rulings for that campaign, that say that you can jump either your stated jump distance, and a distance equal to Str mod x Athletics check result in feet, then you can do that.

But it is a whole different presentation. What makes it hard for me is all the hyper-specific mechanics in the game.

 

[Bilharzia]

Thank you for the link, it looks very interesting. I do have one question, you said you have run Dolmenwood, but the download able PDF on the website didn't have any rules in it, just some inspirational lore (it is really good at that). I don't think this is enough for me to run a campaign in this setting. Is there more somewhere else? The linked page implied the core books are not release yet. Just curious as would like to know more about it. Thanks!

Yes, it is a bit hidden on the website, but the core of what has been released so far is in the "Wormskin" zine -

Wormskin Zine

Print: $10 per issue / PDF: $5 per issue The Original Dolmenwood Zine Wormskin explores the weird fairy tale setting of Dolmenwood. Each issue uncovers various elements of this eldritch realm situated on the leafy verges of Fairy, where austere Drunes rub elbows with weird elf-lords and talking...

necroticgnome.com

There probably is enough for a campaign, but if you want something more substantial, it might make sense to wait for the campaign books to be released, how far off it is, is uncertain though!

There are also the two adventures "The Weird That Befell Drigbolton" The Weird That Befell Drigbolton - Necrotic Gnome | Dolmenwood | DriveThruRPG.com, and "Winter's Daughter" Winter's Daughter (5th Edition Version) - Necrotic Gnome | Dolmenwood | DriveThruRPG.com which are complete adventures in themselves.

Much of this was featured on Questing Beast, which I do not recommend watching if you are trying to save money ...





The Wormskin zine is a mix of setting (for Dolmenwood) and adventure locations which can be run as scenarios. I think what is going on in terms of development now at Necrotic Gnome is that the Wormskin material is being re-worked and expanded into the 3 books which are in development right now, which you can see on the site.

Note that most of the material is written for Old School Essentials, except Winter's Daughter for 5e, although it's fairly easy to convert or substitute for whatever you are running, as I said I was running another system entirely.

Some of the new artwork is being made by Finnish artist Pauliina Hannuniemi https://twitter.com/pauhami_design

 

[TheSword]

I don't mind stuff like Divine Intervention being so limited. It's not like the player character can't earn divine intervention through play. The class feature Divine Intervention is just a thing they can call upon to get what amounts to a wish.

And the fighter/rogue stuff isn't even a rules problem, its a presentation/fluff problem.

The rules don't tell you what you can or cannot do with skill checks. If the group agrees to a set of rulings for that campaign, that say that you can jump either your stated jump distance, and a distance equal to Str mod x Athletics check result in feet, then you can do that.

But it is a whole different presentation. What makes it hard for me is all the hyper-specific mechanics in the game.

Based on your posts and what I know from our general discussions I’d recommend Tales of the Old Margreve. I think out of the two even if you never play the actual campaign I think you’ll enjoy reading it and it will inspire you.

 

[dave2008]

Sure, the worldbuilding is a huge part of it, but some of the worldbuilding is built right into the class and race entries, so I don't think it's all that easy for anyone but us experienced DMs.

I havn't noticed. Again, everything we do is a custom world and I have not noticed anything on the classes hindering us. However, I may be so used to ignoring RPG lore that I don't even notice it is there!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I havn't noticed. Again, everything we do is a custom world and I have not noticed anything on the classes hindering us. However, I may be so used to ignoring RPG lore that I don't even notice it is there!

For sure. It's also possible that we have different expectations and desired outcomes from such a campaign, that we interpret the class features and what they naturally mean differently, etc.

I'd love to hear more about the campaign and it's folklore elements, at least! It may be that you have tricks you employ without having to think about them that I've never thought of.

 

[dave2008]

I'd love to hear more about the campaign and it's folklore elements, at least! It may be that you have tricks you employ without having to think about them that I've never thought of.

I think I mislead you (sorry about that). Our setting is not particularly folklore-ish, we just do things that I think would be useful in a such a setting.

• Magic is rare (a 5th level mage is about the max)
• Magic items are rare, but wonderous
• more gritty realism than standard D&D

But I haven't really woven any folklore elements into are setting. Except the low magic and rarity of monsters I think it is pretty standard D&D fantasy setting. If I get a chance I will think about it some more and see if there is anything in particular that stands out.

 

[Yaarel]

I think I mislead you (sorry about that). Our setting is not particularly folklore-ish, we just do things that I think would be useful in a such a setting.

• Magic is rare (a 5th level mage is about the max)
• Magic items are rare, but wonderous
• more gritty realism than standard D&D

But I haven't really woven any folklore elements into are setting. Except the low magic and rarity of monsters I think it is pretty standard D&D fantasy setting. If I get a chance I will think about it some more and see if there is anything in particular that stands out.

I guess it depends whose folkbelief one is modeling.

The cultures whose folkbeliefs I am familiar with include high magic.

I agree the magic items need to be wondrous, with storytelling effects, rather than merely combat bonuses.

 

[dave2008]

I guess it depends whose folkbelief one is modeling.

The cultures whose folkbeliefs I am familiar with include high magic.

As I said I am not trying to model my game world / setting as a folklore style setting. I just think there are some similarities that I honestly hadn't thought about before this thread. Also, I didn't say my setting didn't include high magic, just that it is rare:

• Our wizard is an exception and is lvl 15. He is currently the most powerful wizard in the known world (by at least 5 levels)
• certain NPCs / Monsters have powerful magic.
• really high magic is ritual in nature

I agree the magic items need to be wondrous, with storytelling effects, rather than merely combat bonuses.

Well I think that should be the default for D&D,.