D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

Here's another take on it: does the resolution process in a RPG system need a "credibility test" as part of the framing of action declaration and resolution?

In HeroQuest revised and MHRP/Cortex+, the answer is yes. Robin Laws's example in the former involves a cowboy trying to outrun his horse: while, for reasons to do with respective builds, the cowboy PC might have a Fast Runner ability rated at 17, while the horse has a Galloping ability rated at 12, that doesn't mean the player can make a test to have the PC outrun his horse. Because that makes no sense in the fiction.

MHRP has the same consideration: mathematically, it is possible (not very likely, but possible) for (say) Jean Gray's arm wrestling dice pool to beat The Thing's. But that doesn't mean she has a chance of beating The Thing in an arm wrestle (other than by using mind control or TK to beat him). Again, we first have to pass a credibility test before then building our pools and resolving the opposed check.

In Burning Wheel, on the other hand, the notion of "credibility tests" has no work to do in these sorts of scenarios (it might have work to do in some knowledge or discovery cases, as per other threads we've been party to). The obstacle is set and the dice are rolled. What is credible, or possible, is a downstream consequence of action resolution, not an input into it. AD&D and Rolemaster also work pretty much like this; so does Classic Traveller. (That last one, given the technical scope it covers, might have some cases where minimum stats are needed to try something - but that is still credibility/possibility is read off the mechanics, and is not an input into framing before any stats are consulted and applied.)

As per my post upthread about sealing the Abyss, I think that 4e needs credibility checks as a precursor to framing. Page 42 of the DMG suggests as much. This is another reason I think of it as falling on the HeroQuest revised "subjective" side of this methodological divide, rather than the Burning Wheel "objective" side.
Interesting, but the question that IMMEDIATELY sprang to my mind is 'why'? I mean, what work are mechanics doing in HeroQuest if the speeds of horses and men are rated on completely different scales and given different names? AND THEN GET COMPARED TO EACH OTHER!!!! lol. It appears to be the same activity, physically pushing yourself to a faster speed for the horse and the man. As an engineer and tinkerer with game systems, HQ seems broken to me! Same with the Hulk/Jane Grey example, the mechanics are flawed! This is what they are FOR is to tell us this stuff. If we have to 'fudge it', then OK, its a poorly designed game (mechanically) and I can live with that, but I bet that gets a lot of negative feedback!

IMHO 4e doesn't have an urgent need for credibility tests. Maybe there's a limited sense in which the thematics of Epic is so different from Heroic that it tends to outstrip the DC chart a bit. I'm not entirely sure. My feeling is that the INTENT was that skills, by themselves, would simply be backstop kind of ways to do things. That is, they would represent relatively mundane or straightforward applications of a character's SKILL or whatever. This is another case where 4e kind of started out as one sort of game, and evolved into another sort along the way.

So, HoML also addresses this. 'Skill' is taken more as 'governing approach'. The fighter with Athletics proficiency approaches problems as physical challenges of strength and raw power. Via the use of powers (not to delve into the current terminology much, lets just say powers) he can apply this approach to things outside what would typically be thought of as athletic challenges. He might be able to intimidate people with his strength, or perform 'wire fu' or whatever. So, to 'Seal the Abyss' so to speak, this strength-based approach would require some sort of 'power' to bind it to the fiction. This could be improvised, it could be enabled by means of paying some other resource, etc. Those means simply wouldn't be available to a Heroic character, so the attempt wouldn't happen. Even the wizard, with his Arcana skill simply doesn't possess a power that can bring it to bear against an epic (Mythic) grade challenge.

I consider this a 'fix' for what in 4e is, IME, a pretty minor issue. It is just that I wanted more emphasis on the progression. There was a tendency for people running 4e to treat Paragon and Epic as just "Heroic with bigger numbers" and miss the POINT of it. You cannot miss the point of it in my game! lol.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Interesting, but the question that IMMEDIATELY sprang to my mind is 'why'? I mean, what work are mechanics doing in HeroQuest if the speeds of horses and men are rated on completely different scales and given different names? AND THEN GET COMPARED TO EACH OTHER!!!! lol. It appears to be the same activity, physically pushing yourself to a faster speed for the horse and the man. As an engineer and tinkerer with game systems, HQ seems broken to me! Same with the Hulk/Jane Grey example, the mechanics are flawed! This is what they are FOR is to tell us this stuff. If we have to 'fudge it', then OK, its a poorly designed game (mechanically) and I can live with that, but I bet that gets a lot of negative feedback!
This is like saying that DW is broken because the resolution numbers for Hack & Slash are the same whether you're fighting Orcus or a goblin.
 

This is like saying that DW is broken because the resolution numbers for Hack & Slash are the same whether you're fighting Orcus or a goblin.
I don't think it is quite the same. As you said yourself, the speed of the man would seem to rate higher than the horse. Hacking and Slashing Orcus is different due to other factors.
 

pemerton

Legend
I don't think it is quite the same. As you said yourself, the speed of the man would seem to rate higher than the horse. Hacking and Slashing Orcus is different due to other factors.
But the function of a descriptor rating in HQ revised is to support resolution against what are mostly fixed target numbers determined via the "pass/fail cycle" chart. Opposed checks figure, but an opposed check can only be framed if the credibility test is first passed. Just as in DW you can only Hack & Slash a dragon if the credibility test is first passed (eg you're armed with a dragon-slaying sword). The parallel is almost exact.
 

But the function of a descriptor rating in HQ revised is to support resolution against what are mostly fixed target numbers determined via the "pass/fail cycle" chart. Opposed checks figure, but an opposed check can only be framed if the credibility test is first passed. Just as in DW you can only Hack & Slash a dragon if the credibility test is first passed (eg you're armed with a dragon-slaying sword). The parallel is almost exact.
Not really disagreeing with you on how it works. I just don't understand why you would design a game such that there are two different descriptors which mean the same thing, and use different scales.

Consider DW, armor means the same thing for all creatures, how much damage you avoid. Hit points mean the same thing, how much you can take (or something). You can compare the strength of one creature against a PC or another creature in a way that has some meaning. Also, even in D&D, any of these things needs to pass some degree of 'test'. In a D&D game your PC might have a STR of 25 (girdle of Storm Giant Strength) but wrestling an ancient huge red dragon to the ground still ain't going to happen. At most it is going to be a question whether you can do it or not.

I would just think, if I'm designing a system from whole cloth (HQ) why wouldn't I put the numbers on a single scale? What is gained by not doing that?
 

pemerton

Legend
Not really disagreeing with you on how it works. I just don't understand why you would design a game such that there are two different descriptors which mean the same thing, and use different scales.

<snip>


I would just think, if I'm designing a system from whole cloth (HQ) why wouldn't I put the numbers on a single scale? What is gained by not doing that?
It's a free descriptor system, and all abilities are rated from 1 to 20. (Scores above 20 cycle back round, but - in effect - get a free "hero point" expenditure every time which steps the result up by one (eg minor failure to minor victory, or minor victory to major victory). There are rules for managing broad vs narrow descriptors (eg "strong as an ox" vs "lifts heavy rocks") to ensure parity of utility, but that's explicitly based on considerations of (i) fairness and (ii) encouraging evocative descriptions even if they narrow the descriptor, not simulation.

The reason for keeping all descriptors rated on the same scale is much the same as the reason that AW or DW uses the same ranges for all resolution, with a maximum modifier (typically) of +3 or so: it makes the maths work. Just as one example: if my cowboy is racing back to the homestead to save his kid brother from the bandits, I might test my Care For My Kid Brother (which, let's say, is rated at 17), with an augment from my horse's Galloper (which, let's say, is rated at 12). The system doesn't use any sort of "simulationist" resolution, and doesn't care how fast the horse is going in mph. It cares about the salience of those descriptors, which are signalled by the number next to them.

Now my horse might have Galloper 12, while the hustler who is planning to win a bag of silver dollars in the local gift might have Sprinter 15. That doesn't tell us that the hustler - even if near-guaranteed to win the gift - is faster than the horse. It tells us that the fact that this guy is a sprinter is more salient in the fiction than the fact that my horse can gallop fast. And as I posted, the question of whether the hustler can outrun the horse isn't settled by making a check, but by considering genre-based credibility. An analogy to this in 4e would be something like the sealing of the Abyss that I described upthread; intimidating Orcus would be another example; or everyone's favourite hypothetical degenerate social action declaration, the PC who persuades the king to forfeit his/her throne (in 4e this fails credibility for a heroic PC, but in my view not at all for a paragon one!).

Consider DW, armor means the same thing for all creatures, how much damage you avoid. Hit points mean the same thing, how much you can take (or something). You can compare the strength of one creature against a PC or another creature in a way that has some meaning.
From DW, p 58:

Note that an “attack” is some action that a player undertakes that has a chance of causing physical harm to someone else. Attacking a dragon with inch-thick metal scales full of magical energy using a typical sword is like swinging a meat cleaver at a tank: it just isn’t going to cause any harm, so hack and slash doesn’t apply. Note that circumstances can change that: if you’re in a position to stab the dragon on its soft underbelly (good luck with getting there) it could hurt, so it’s an attack.​

That's the "credibility test" at work. To pick some contrasting systems, AD&D and 3E D&D and Classic Traveller have nothing like this: in each case the player can declare the action, the check is made, and the result compared to the difficulty (ie the AC in D&D, the 8+ needed to hit in Traveller). Credibility is an output of the system (and it's a legitimate criticism of the system that it produces absurd outcomes, like a single linkboy with a dagger being able to one-shot a dragon: traditionally D&D uses hit points to handle this, while in Traveller some modifiers just make hitting impossible without a sufficiently high skill bonus).

Here's another example, from Ironsworn (p 208):

You might be familiar with roleplaying games that give various tasks a difficulty rating or modifier. The flexibility to make each toss of the dice contextual, to adjust the chance to succeed based on the situation, creates an experience which helps simulate your imagined reality.

However, the Ironsworn rules do not utilize fine-grained mechanics for the difficulty of a particular challenge or the abilities a foe can bring to bear. Instead, the requirements to overcome challenges in your world are primarily represented through your fictional framing. . . .

A leviathan is an ancient sea beast . . . It’s tough to kill because of its epic rank, and it inflicts epic harm, but it doesn’t have any other mechanical characteristics. If we look to the fiction of the leviathan’s, description, we see “flesh as tough as iron.” But, rolling a Strike against a leviathan is the same as against a common thug. In either case, it’s your action die, plus your stat and adds compared to the challenge dice. Your chances to score a strong hit, weak hit, or miss are the same.

So how do you give the leviathan its due as a terrifying, seemingly invulnerable foe? You do it through the fiction.

If you have sworn a vow to defeat a leviathan, are you armed with a suitable weapon? Punching it won’t work. Even a deadly weapon such as a spear would barely get its attention. Perhaps you undertook a quest to find the Abyssal Harpoon, an artifact from the Old World, carved from the bones of a long-dead sea god. This mythic weapon gives you the fictional framing you need to confront the monster, and finding it can count as a milestone on your vow to destroy this beast.

Even with your weapon at the ready, can you overcome your fears as you stand on the prow of your boat, the water surging beneath you, the gaping maw of the beast just below the surface? Face Danger with +heart to find out.

The outcome of your move will incorporate the leviathan’s devastating power. Did you score a miss? The beast smashes your boat to kindling. It tries to drag you into the depths. Want to Face Danger by swimming away? You can’t outswim a leviathan. You’ll have to try something else.

Remember the concepts behind fictional framing. Your readiness and the nature of your challenge may force you to overcome greater dangers and make additional moves. Once you’ve rolled the dice, your fictional framing provides context for the outcome of those moves.​

Again, we see the credibility test at work. This can be contrasted with, say, Burning Wheel. In BW the leviathan would have Grey-shade Mortal Wound (ie numerically about double that of an ordinary mortal creature) and hence any normal weapon will at best have the chance to inflict a Superficial Wound. It would force a Steel check when confronted; and while its would-be harpooner is hesitating it would strike the boat using the Devastator trait to reduce it to kindling. In BW, unlike in HeroQuest, the numbers are "simulationist" measure of in-fiction capacity, sitting on a common scale; and unlike in Ironsworn or DW, the numbers provide the input into resolution with credibility being the output.

I'm not advocating for either approach; just noting the significant difference, and my opinion that 4e D&D sits on the "subjective" side of the divide.

To move from description to advocacy: I think it is hard to make a game that uses "objective" difficulties and resolution and produces a truly epic/mythic feel in play. I don't regard 3E as a success in this respect. BW pushes in this direction, but at least as I've experienced it has a natural tendency towards grittiness and details mattering. Whereas systems I know that do reliable gonzo are 4e D&D and MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, and in both cases I think the "subjective" approach is part of this.
 

It's a free descriptor system, and all abilities are rated from 1 to 20. (Scores above 20 cycle back round, but - in effect - get a free "hero point" expenditure every time which steps the result up by one (eg minor failure to minor victory, or minor victory to major victory). There are rules for managing broad vs narrow descriptors (eg "strong as an ox" vs "lifts heavy rocks") to ensure parity of utility, but that's explicitly based on considerations of (i) fairness and (ii) encouraging evocative descriptions even if they narrow the descriptor, not simulation.

The reason for keeping all descriptors rated on the same scale is much the same as the reason that AW or DW uses the same ranges for all resolution, with a maximum modifier (typically) of +3 or so: it makes the maths work. Just as one example: if my cowboy is racing back to the homestead to save his kid brother from the bandits, I might test my Care For My Kid Brother (which, let's say, is rated at 17), with an augment from my horse's Galloper (which, let's say, is rated at 12). The system doesn't use any sort of "simulationist" resolution, and doesn't care how fast the horse is going in mph. It cares about the salience of those descriptors, which are signalled by the number next to them.

Now my horse might have Galloper 12, while the hustler who is planning to win a bag of silver dollars in the local gift might have Sprinter 15. That doesn't tell us that the hustler - even if near-guaranteed to win the gift - is faster than the horse. It tells us that the fact that this guy is a sprinter is more salient in the fiction than the fact that my horse can gallop fast. And as I posted, the question of whether the hustler can outrun the horse isn't settled by making a check, but by considering genre-based credibility. An analogy to this in 4e would be something like the sealing of the Abyss that I described upthread; intimidating Orcus would be another example; or everyone's favourite hypothetical degenerate social action declaration, the PC who persuades the king to forfeit his/her throne (in 4e this fails credibility for a heroic PC, but in my view not at all for a paragon one!).


From DW, p 58:

Note that an “attack” is some action that a player undertakes that has a chance of causing physical harm to someone else. Attacking a dragon with inch-thick metal scales full of magical energy using a typical sword is like swinging a meat cleaver at a tank: it just isn’t going to cause any harm, so hack and slash doesn’t apply. Note that circumstances can change that: if you’re in a position to stab the dragon on its soft underbelly (good luck with getting there) it could hurt, so it’s an attack.​

That's the "credibility test" at work. To pick some contrasting systems, AD&D and 3E D&D and Classic Traveller have nothing like this: in each case the player can declare the action, the check is made, and the result compared to the difficulty (ie the AC in D&D, the 8+ needed to hit in Traveller). Credibility is an output of the system (and it's a legitimate criticism of the system that it produces absurd outcomes, like a single linkboy with a dagger being able to one-shot a dragon: traditionally D&D uses hit points to handle this, while in Traveller some modifiers just make hitting impossible without a sufficiently high skill bonus).

Here's another example, from Ironsworn (p 208):

You might be familiar with roleplaying games that give various tasks a difficulty rating or modifier. The flexibility to make each toss of the dice contextual, to adjust the chance to succeed based on the situation, creates an experience which helps simulate your imagined reality.​
However, the Ironsworn rules do not utilize fine-grained mechanics for the difficulty of a particular challenge or the abilities a foe can bring to bear. Instead, the requirements to overcome challenges in your world are primarily represented through your fictional framing. . . .​
A leviathan is an ancient sea beast . . . It’s tough to kill because of its epic rank, and it inflicts epic harm, but it doesn’t have any other mechanical characteristics. If we look to the fiction of the leviathan’s, description, we see “flesh as tough as iron.” But, rolling a Strike against a leviathan is the same as against a common thug. In either case, it’s your action die, plus your stat and adds compared to the challenge dice. Your chances to score a strong hit, weak hit, or miss are the same.​
So how do you give the leviathan its due as a terrifying, seemingly invulnerable foe? You do it through the fiction.​
If you have sworn a vow to defeat a leviathan, are you armed with a suitable weapon? Punching it won’t work. Even a deadly weapon such as a spear would barely get its attention. Perhaps you undertook a quest to find the Abyssal Harpoon, an artifact from the Old World, carved from the bones of a long-dead sea god. This mythic weapon gives you the fictional framing you need to confront the monster, and finding it can count as a milestone on your vow to destroy this beast.​
Even with your weapon at the ready, can you overcome your fears as you stand on the prow of your boat, the water surging beneath you, the gaping maw of the beast just below the surface? Face Danger with +heart to find out.​
The outcome of your move will incorporate the leviathan’s devastating power. Did you score a miss? The beast smashes your boat to kindling. It tries to drag you into the depths. Want to Face Danger by swimming away? You can’t outswim a leviathan. You’ll have to try something else.​
Remember the concepts behind fictional framing. Your readiness and the nature of your challenge may force you to overcome greater dangers and make additional moves. Once you’ve rolled the dice, your fictional framing provides context for the outcome of those moves.​

Again, we see the credibility test at work. This can be contrasted with, say, Burning Wheel. In BW the leviathan would have Grey-shade Mortal Wound (ie numerically about double that of an ordinary mortal creature) and hence any normal weapon will at best have the chance to inflict a Superficial Wound. It would force a Steel check when confronted; and while its would-be harpooner is hesitating it would strike the boat using the Devastator trait to reduce it to kindling. In BW, unlike in HeroQuest, the numbers are "simulationist" measure of in-fiction capacity, sitting on a common scale; and unlike in Ironsworn or DW, the numbers provide the input into resolution with credibility being the output.

I'm not advocating for either approach; just noting the significant difference, and my opinion that 4e D&D sits on the "subjective" side of the divide.

To move from description to advocacy: I think it is hard to make a game that uses "objective" difficulties and resolution and produces a truly epic/mythic feel in play. I don't regard 3E as a success in this respect. BW pushes in this direction, but at least as I've experienced it has a natural tendency towards grittiness and details mattering. Whereas systems I know that do reliable gonzo are 4e D&D and MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, and in both cases I think the "subjective" approach is part of this.
Hmmm, its funny you say this, because I just created extra dimensions of scaling to achieve something pretty 'gonzo'. Honestly I found 4e's scaling mechanically sufficient for this, for the most part. You didn't really need 'credibility tests' to any practical degree, nothing beyond what you would find in games like AD&D where, as I said before, wrestling a dragon is just not possible for a human-sized PC, regardless of things like strength (at least IMHO). In any case, if the game works by the rules, you wouldn't be a 5th level PC with 25 STR anyway in 1e AD&D...

And that's the point. So, anyway, I did a few things with HoML. I hold attributes to be highly non-linear. While you might only get a +5 bonus to checks for STR of 'Mighty' you really are in a different league from STR of 'Average'. The average guy might manage to beat you on an athletics check for some other reason, perhaps, but it is critical to note that there's nothing like 'opposed checks' or such. If an NPC represented a challenge to you, then the magnitude of that would be determined more by the GM and the structure of how conflict is architected. I see 4e as working the same way. There's numbers, which REALLY SHOULD fall out correctly. It should never be true that an Epic threat would be surmountable by a Heroic PC. He might pass a check.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Hmmm, its funny you say this, because I just created extra dimensions of scaling to achieve something pretty 'gonzo'. Honestly I found 4e's scaling mechanically sufficient for this, for the most part. You didn't really need 'credibility tests' to any practical degree, nothing beyond what you would find in games like AD&D where, as I said before, wrestling a dragon is just not possible for a human-sized PC, regardless of things like strength (at least IMHO). In any case, if the game works by the rules, you wouldn't be a 5th level PC with 25 STR anyway in 1e AD&D...
Credibility is also in the eye of the beholder but I agree. I grab the sensitive part of the dragons wing with the back hand of my axe just as it tries to adjust its position the way it has been and it smashes into the ground.... for piddly damage but it is definitely out of sorts (prone). Using an at-will prone inducing attack by the fighter in 4e. :p
 

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