D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Hussar]

We use passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to determine whether anyone notices a hidden threat, and traps are hidden threats.


Intelligence (Investigation) and Wisdom (Perception) are coded and concrete, providing anchors upon which the players and Dungeon Master can commonly agree.

It's up to the DM when to call for a check, but it's not up to them to call for either/or willy nilly like they don't have clear applications outlined in the rules.
/snip

I'm not talking about your group though. My group does the same thing. But, I've played in groups and seen modules where if you don't state that you're looking around, you blunder into traps. It's hardly universal. And, as far as traps go, again, it's entirely DM dependent. Which is the argument that people were making about why exploration is problematic in ways that say, combat isn't. No one has any questions about how to stick a pointy metal thing into that giant. It's 100% concrete and does not vary from table to table. Can I look at that chest and determine if it's trapped? Depends entirely on the DM.

 

[Hussar]

That's a mighty fine list but right now, you're in a stone room. Inside the room, there's 2 exits. One is a stone door and the other an iron door. The iron door appears to be locked. There's also a desk covered with notes, a bookshelf, a red carpet, and a chest.

Tell me, how does your druid "win" this scenario?

Why is my druid alone?

But, okay, I'll play. Give me a level range please. Is this a 1st level druid or a 10th? Because that's going to make a serious difference.

Let's see - Create Bonfire/Produce Flame solves light problems. Thunderclap destroys both doors as neither are immune to thunder damage (although that's going to be REALLY noisy), so, I'm not trapped. What else do I need to do here?

Sure, if we want to theory craft ludicrous situations, we can do that. About par for the course in this thread.

 

[Hussar]

Most of your assessments are fairly accurate. But:


I can actually see this as a useful bit for the DM. Tell them that druidcraft predicts a major storm, then let them spend time working in advance to escape the brunt of it. And then the aftermath of the storm is going to mess up future exploration.

Also, most future-divinations in D&D are of the "things can still change; nothing is set in stone" mentality. Considering all the weird things that can affect the weather in D&D, ranging from spells to monsters to the whims of the weather gods to dire butterflies flapping their wings half a world away, I'd tell the PCs that druidcraft is actually about as accurate as their local news station meteorologist. Useful, but not perfect.

So, now we're back to DM Decides territory

Unless you're an arcane trickster (and not entirely sure about it then), you can't really use the hand for detail work like disarming a trap. It's also not hard to shift to traps with moving parts that are heavier than 10 pounds, or to assume that intelligent trap makers don't take mage hands into consideration. Heck, a spellcaster might include a trap that only goes off the trapped object is touched by a magical force.

Why am I disarming? I just set off the trap.

These, of course, depend on the caster having the spell prepared (or at least in their book, for wizards). You can't do much with divine casters who can prepare anything, but for wizards at least, the DM has control over what spells they find.

Don't your wizards get two free spells every level? By 5th level, I've got 16 spells in my spellbook even without finding any new spells. That's more than enough to cover most of this stuff.

But do they have a container to store the liquid in? While just breaking the PCs stuff usually isn't fair, there's still the possibility that they lose their waterskins and don't have anything else to carry water in. Having to cast that spell each time you're thirsty will be a pain in the spell slots.

Yeah, that got brought up before. It was a pointless thing then and it still is now. Good grief, no one carries a pot? If you're at the point where waterskins are the issue in exploration, I'm really not interested in playing in that campaign.

Perhaps talk to the players about instituting a rule wherein if the PC takes a lot of damage all at once, there's a chance that some of their non-magical gear might break. You could even institute the notch rule from Darker Dungeons, which says (among other things) that mending doesn't work on completely broken objects (I'd say it does, but you have to upcast it to at least 1st level).

And we're back to DM Decides. Again, I KNOW there are rulesets out there that will make exploration interesting. That's the point. If exploration in baseline 5e was actually interesting you wouldn't have a hundred different rules variant add ons to make it interesting. Note, that Darker Dungeons rules are SERIOUSLY cool.

Just remember, animals mostly want food, safety, and (depending on the time of year) sex. And speak with animals doesn't raise their Intelligence any...

Yup, DM decides. The efficacy of the spell is 100% DM dependent.

This spell has the same issues as with mage hand, except that it can carry 30 pounds instead of 10. Plus I'd say it's probably weightless so it's not going to trigger any floor traps.

True, no pit traps. But, again, unless we're in a dungeon, those generally aren't seen too often. And, well, being able to remote trigger traps from 60 feet away makes it pretty effective.

 

[robus]

Exploration is entirely on the back of the GM to figure out how it works with only a few places were some suggestions are made

I would respond that this is exactly where the DM finds their fun by creating interesting things for players to encounter. I don’t want to consult a massive rule book to build exploration challenges, I just want to throw stuff at the players and make it interesting for them. As soon as things become codified like that DMing becomes a chore, especially if there’s a rules lawyer in the group. “Rule 7.8.b says that river X should never be that hard for a group at level Y to ford. You’re not being fair.”

Edit: I guess this is where I would say the art of DMing lies. The combat and social interaction rules are there to resolve uncertainty when encountering creatures, i.e. things that can respond independently to the players actions. Exploration is where the DM has free reign to create. That seems awesome to me.

 

[Faolyn]

So, now we're back to DM Decides territory

Well, yeah. That's what DMs do. No system can ever hope to cover every single possibility. DMs either need to be willing to figure things out a head of time or on the fly.

Why am I disarming? I just set off the trap.

That's great if it's a poison needle. If it's a fireball trap that incinerates everything in the area, or it sets off an alarm that alerts the guardian golems to start attacking? Less cool.

Don't your wizards get two free spells every level? By 5th level, I've got 16 spells in my spellbook even without finding any new spells. That's more than enough to cover most of this stuff.

Sure--if your wizards want to take those spells. You're assuming they always will want to.

Yeah, that got brought up before. It was a pointless thing then and it still is now. Good grief, no one carries a pot? If you're at the point where waterskins are the issue in exploration, I'm really not interested in playing in that campaign.

No? I've never had anyone carry a pot in any game I've been in. Unless it's part of some adventuring kit. In which case it's likely a tiny pot that (a) won't hold much water and (b) has no lid.

True, no pit traps. But, again, unless we're in a dungeon, those generally aren't seen too often. And, well, being able to remote trigger traps from 60 feet away makes it pretty effective.

What? Pit traps are so much an outdoor thing.

Also, if you want to be able to find the trap you have to be able to walk up to it and examine it. And possibly trigger other traps by doing so.

 

[Hussar]

I addressed dancing lights, light, and produce flame upthread in response to your previous assertions. Here's the post. As to the others, here goes:

No, you attempted to address dancing lights with a bunch of non-sequitors that didn't actually address anything.

• Druidcraft. The DMG has weather tables right on page 109.
• Guidance. As you note, the task needs to be shorter than a minute. I set most tasks at 10 minutes (for a given sized area) - search for traps or secret doors, figure out how they operate, pick a lock, loot, etc. Not much of an issue here.
• Mage Hand. First you have to find the trap. But even so, I don't think one can say mage hand will obviate the need to worry about most traps. Some, maybe.

You trip traps from range. Does no one actually do this? This has been SOP in any group I've played with since 2e. Now that it's a cantrip, traps are largely a thing of the past.

• Mending. I know many DMs treat it as "fix anything," but the spell has its limits. It can only repair a single break or tear in an object that is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension. If the object was shattered or has more than a single break or tear, you're out of luck.

Again, DM dependent. Which is the point that was being made.

• Alarm. Yes, quite useful. It's 11 minutes per ritual casting though. What's the frequency of wandering monster checks? What's the opportunity cost of having, say, the wizard unavailable to figure out how a secret door or a trap works? Or your ranger keeping watch for danger? And if it is a ranger casting it, they had to prepare it which is one fewer hunter's mark. Okay by me.

What? Why is the wizard unavailable? When do you think you cast this? This is for protecting your campsite. You spend a short rest, which the wizard doesn't benefit from typically, setting up a bunch of alarms. In a dungeon, it gets even easier, you just need a couple in intersections leading to where ever you are holing up.

• Comprehend Languages. Great spell. Anyone other than a wizard has to prepare it - one fewer Tasha's hideous laughter, armor of Agathys, shield, etc. - and you have to touch the thing you're reading. Safer to know the language, if possible. Opportunity cost to ritual cast it versus doing other exploration tasks too. (When are those wandering monsters going to come calling?)

Oh noes, I'm short ONE of my SIX spells at 1st level. 8 by 2nd level. Oh noes, whatever shall I do without that one slot? Never minding the other two casters in the group.

Again, I thought we weren't limiting ourselves to mega dungeons for exploration. If by exploration, you only mean dungeon crawling, then, well, this becomes a very different conversation.

• Create Water. Addressed this in my post upthread. Others did too, by pointing out the need for containers. Ten gallons plus the necessary containers to hold it weighs a lot, particularly with the variant encumbrance rule in place.

Oh noes, I'm going to waste that free water that I just created for free. Whatever shall I do? It's not like I cast it before we long rest and then have all my spell slots back in the morning.

• Detect Magic. Opportunity cost on exploration tasks when cast as a ritual, must be prepared by non-wizards so that's one fewer 1st-level spell to bring to bear in combat, wandering monsters, etc. You now see magic stuff in the area and know its school of magic. Great! Now what? The exploration challenge isn't necessarily over yet.

Seriously? The ability to detect magic, even through solid objects isn't a major thing? You're not even trying now. Again, how frenetic are your adventures when 10 minutes actually makes a difference? In the vast majority of adventures, it makes zero difference.

• Detect Poison and Disease. This spell needs to be prepared so that's one fewer entangle or hunter's mark - fine by me! See also Detect Magic for the trade-offs. And the exploration challenge isn't necessarily over yet either.
• Find Familiar. Addressed in my post upthread.
• Tenser's Floating Disk. Address in my post upthread.

Again, non-sequitors that did nothing to actually address things.

• Goodberry. One fewer entangle or hunter's mark because you don't feel like foraging while traveling or carrying some rations is just fine by me. Having actual food is also pretty useful when it comes to dealing with ravenous beasts in my experience.

Why? You cast them the night before (it's unlikely you've blown every spell before you take a long rest) and you have all your slots back in the morning. It's almost like all your objections rely on the players being mind bogglingly stupid.

• Identify. Great spell if you're pressed for time, but you may as well just wait for the next short rest, if trying to figure out what a magic item does. As with all rituals, it has a time cost - what can happen during that time? What other useful task aren't you doing while you're casting the ritual?
• Purify Food and Drink. I'd love to see a paladin burn a potential smite on this spell. The cleric and druid will have to prepare it, too. What other useful combat spell might they have prepared instead? And again, opportunity cost on other tasks and wandering monsters when?

Oh noes, I'm using one of my many slots on purify food and drink. It's not like I don't have 6 slots at 3rd level with a 16 wisdom (as per the PHB). And I get more of them every level and every ASI. Oh noes, what a huge opportunity cost.

• Speak With Animals. Strikes me as more of a social interaction challenge spell. As for being DM dependent, the whole game is that way. I tend to be generous with information from animals, if the PCs succeed at the social interaction challenge. Simply talking to the squirrel isn't a guarantee that he'll tell you about more than his nuts.

So, animals have no knowledge of dangerous predators in the area? Again, the fact that you point to the fact that this is DM dependent pretty much shows exactly what we're talking about.

• Unseen Servant. Useful in some circumstances, but again, this might only work on some traps. And if the traps do damage to the unseen servant, they're gone (1 hp). With a Strength of 2, they can't carry much or push/pull/drag with very much force. As with others, opportunity cost on other tasks if cast as a ritual.

So what you've done here is present a list of useful tools the players can bring to bear in many situations. But none of them are free of costs or trade-offs when actually put into the context of situations where there is at least some time pressure or urgency (which, per the DMG, random encounters are for in part as are event-based adventures). I think anyone who has a strong exploration element in their games sees these trade-offs and costs come up again and again. The players have to make meaningful choices as a result. That's certainly been my experience. There's no I-win button here.

What I've done here is show that there is a shopping list of options that players can bring to bear in nearly any situation which will pretty much bypass most exploration challenges. The other two pillars have nothing that comes even close to this. And I haven't even started with class abilities, just spells.

But, yes, your response proves the point rather nicely. Exploration is DM dependent to a degree that social and combat aren't.

 

[iserith]

I would respond that this is exactly where the DM finds their fun by creating interesting things for players to encounter. I don’t want to consult a massive rule book to build exploration challenges, I just want to throw stuff at the players and make it interesting for them. As soon as things become codified like that DMing becomes a chore, especially if there’s a rules lawyer in the group. “Rule 7.8.b says that river X should never be that hard for a group at level Y to ford. You’re not being fair.”

Edit: I guess this is where I would say the art of DMing lies. The combat and social interaction rules are there to resolve uncertainty when encountering creatures, i.e. things that can respond independently to the players actions. Exploration is where the DM has free reign to create. That seems awesome to me.

Don't let anyone fool you: The rules are there. People just don't read the DMG or, if they do, don't use the rules therein. The rules are absolutely in place to make the most common exploration challenges "codified" if that's what people want to do. Traveling, stealthy movement, finding hidden objects, examples of traps, secret doors, navigating, foraging, tracking, mapping, the works. All there.

 

[Hussar]

I would respond that this is exactly where the DM finds their fun by creating interesting things for players to encounter. I don’t want to consult a massive rule book to build exploration challenges, I just want to throw stuff at the players and make it interesting for them. As soon as things become codified like that DMing becomes a chore, especially if there’s a rules lawyer in the group. “Rule 7.8.b says that river X should never be that hard for a group at level Y to ford. You’re not being fair.”

Edit: I guess this is where I would say the art of DMing lies. The combat and social interaction rules are there to resolve uncertainty when encountering creatures, i.e. things that can respond independently to the players actions. Exploration is where the DM has free reign to create. That seems awesome to me.

I guess my question is, do you understand why some people might have an issue here? Like you say, in combat or social pillars, there are a host of player facing mechanics that they can use to leverage their chances of success in the challenge. But, exploration is entirely DM dependent?

 

[Hussar]

Don't let anyone fool you: The rules are there. People just don't read the DMG or, if they do, don't use the rules therein. The rules are absolutely in place to make the most common exploration challenges "codified" if that's what people want to do. Traveling, stealthy movement, finding hidden objects, examples of traps, secret doors, navigating, foraging, tracking, mapping, the works. All there.

No, they really, really aren't. You've shown that quite clearly. This thread has demonstrated this quite clearly.

Really, what skill check do I use for finding a secret door? What codified rule, page and paragraph please, do I use here? Do I use Perception or Passive Perception or Investigation? Or something else? Shouldn't Survival be of use here? After all, it's for finding tracks, so, it's obviously a skill for seeing/noticing details. What, clearly codified skill should I be using?

 

[Ovinomancer]

I would respond that this is exactly where the DM finds their fun by creating interesting things for players to encounter. I don’t want to consult a massive rule book to build exploration challenges, I just want to throw stuff at the players and make it interesting for them. As soon as things become codified like that DMing becomes a chore, especially if there’s a rules lawyer in the group. “Rule 7.8.b says that river X should never be that hard for a group at level Y to ford. You’re not being fair.”

Edit: I guess this is where I would say the art of DMing lies. The combat and social interaction rules are there to resolve uncertainty when encountering creatures, i.e. things that can respond independently to the players actions. Exploration is where the DM has free reign to create. That seems awesome to me.

Sure, but the counter argument to this is that there is now no art to GMing in combat or social encounters (presuming you use the framework suggested, but not mandated by the 5e rules for social conflicts)? I don't find that argument compelling, and I don't see that a process for exploration would suck the fun out of things. I say this because there are other systems that fully operationalize exploration, do an excellent job of it, and provide lots of room for exciting and memorable play in the exploration area. One of them is even based on 5e -- Five Torches Deep. One Ring does a good job of operationalizing travel in the exploration sphere. It's not a situation where a good framework requires either a mass of rules (and subsequent reference of them) or prevents the GM from being able to practice their art.

To be clear, putting this on the GM's shoulders isn't an automatic failure, and it's 100% fine to like it as it is. It's great that you feel motivated to rise to this challenge and provide GM decisions! I do this as well when I run 5e, because, as you note, you have to to GM that game. I don't think that it's either this or hidebound rules, though.