D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Lanefan]

No, because if the context matters, then description, alone and by itself, is not exploration. If the context matters, then it is that context which need to look at. As that is what the exploration pillar would be connected to.

Also, I don't care about the play loop. It doesn't provide us anything here.

I think it does; in that because it's the action declaration of the player(s)* that almost always prompts a description or narration, the action and resulting description are probably best looked at as a unit.

* - such an awfully formal-sounding term, ain't it?

Okay, let's dig into this a little bit. If it is new, no matter what, it is exploration. Let's say I give you that.

Then what do you call it when the players are interacting in a known environment? Let's say the player's return to their keep, and you describe it, and John heads to his forge, fires it up, and begins crafting a longsword. It isn't new, so it isn't exploration. There is no combat, and he's alone so it can't be social. So, what is this?

Downtime. That one's easy*.

The one I don't have an answer for is when the PCs are travelling through or adventuring in a well-known area. There's no combat, no exploration, it's not downtime, and the only possibility for social is if-when the PCs interact with each other.

* - and yes I know Downtime doesn't (yet) exist as a pillar of play, but it should; and until it does the scene you describe probably remains uncategorized.

Either, it actually does fit into one of the three pillars, or there is something outside of the three pillars. So,what do we call it?

Rolling back to the New question. Let us say that the party gets an idea that they might have missed something in the Old Mine that they cleared out and decide to go back. There are no new monsters or residents. The party begins walking the paths they have already walked, avoiding the traps they have already avoided, and they are looking to see if they missed something. According to your post up above, since they have seen this all before, none of this is exploration. So, what is it? Why is this not exploration, just because it isn't new?

Good question. One can certainly argue that it's not exploration as there's nothing new being found or learned. One can just as well argue that it is exploration because they're actively seeking something new and simply haven't found it yet (contrast this with simply travelling along a well-known road between two towns, where they're not actively seeking anything new).

Model #2 and Model #3 are mutually exclusive. Either everything is exploration, unless it is specifically combat or social, or there are additional elements in the game that are not exploration, combat or social.

I've several times posited there's at least one more element: downtime. It covers some of the gaps, but still leaves a few.

 

[Asisreo]

Create Food and Water conjures 45 lbs of food. You need to eat only a single pound of food per day. The food lasts 24 hours. If you have a 3rd level slot left at the end of the day, you cast it and then eat a pound of food each. You then take a pound with you to eat during the next day. Or you can do Goodberry, which is 10 berries, and enough for a full days meal.

3rd level slots are expensive at lower levels like tier 2. They aren't slots used only for utility, that's your emergency Revivify slot or your emergency Mass Healing Word. Its not a free slot by any means. At level 5, you can only cast 3rd level spells twice in a day.

If you're a druid, its the same concept for tier 1.

But as a DM, I can't expect the mundane to challenge the fantastic, so I put multiple effects onto the area which i want to challenge their travel. If I want a desert, I could make it so that the natural heat and infertility also stunts the magical growth, causing a dead magic zone.

Walking through the enchanted forest may subject the players to Wild Magic, making spellcasting dangerous.

But really, I'm not trying to constantly threaten the players through survival challenges, so it doesn't get old because it only occurs when I'm actually using it and not when I think I haven't punished the players enough.

 

[TheSword]

Some of our daily water intake comes from what we eat, not just what we drink. Even then, a gallon is a lot.

Drinking when you’re active is different to drinking normally. 4 liters a day isn’t excessive if you’re walking 15 miles.

 

[Hussar]

But... but... if the DM makes his NPC"s spread out and take cover then he's just being an adversarial DM and only doing it to nullify a character's ability... and on top of that spreading out and taking cover is such a bad combat cliche....

And this, this right here? This is why I refuse to engage with you @Imaro.

 

[Chaosmancer]

OK, I think I get it.

My immediate idea is what about tying it not to successes or failures but to side effects. Regardless of whether the original action succeeds or fails, every time an action generates a side effect (noise would probably be the most common), bang another die into the pool.

So, if you try to bash down a door without first casting Silence you're guaranteed to generate a Noise side-effect, regardless whether your bash attempt succeeds or fails.

Eh, the idea was explicitly to tie them to successes and failures. Things like making a bunch of noise are going to happen regardless.

By 9th I can get behind it, in part because in my eyes 9th counts as high level (my games tend to soft-cap at about 11th-ish) and thus a 9th-level character has earned the right to be a big damn hero.

See, I don't always get to high levels, but the system looks like it is designed for 9 to be the mid-point. It is kind of said it was actually designed for that to be an endpoint.

In 1e a typical Goblin was about a match for one or two typical commoners. A single Goblin against a 1st-level character - even a MU - would be the underdog.

It seems there's room in 5e for a level 0 and maybe even a level -1, to fill the gap between commoner and ordinary 1st-level. In 4e there was room for about 4 or 5 levels in that same gap; while in 1e-2e-3e there's room for 0th level and that's about it.

Can't comment on the level gaps, but in 5e a single goblin who fights smart (doesn't charge into a crowd swinging and stands there waiting to get hit) is easily a match for far more than one or two commoners. If they stick with archery and keep moving and bonus action hiding, the single goblin at night could kill a crowd of people who never even get a chance to fight back.

Even just charging in idiotically they can likely take out three commoners, possibly without even taking any damage.

In my homebrew I made goblins of average intelligence, wisdom and charisma, and basically just left them as is. And they are one of the most terrifying forces on the planet.

Which might mean you end up having to houserule some DM-side stuff in order to generate those challenges.

That said, I'm not shy about changing rules to remove abilities if I have to; largely because the other option - beefing up the challenges - just plays into a power-creep arms race I'd rather avoid if possible.

I get wanting to avoid power creep, but I also just don't like the design philosphy of taking away the players abilities until you can challenge them again. It just feels bad.

I think it does; in that because it's the action declaration of the player(s)* that almost always prompts a description or narration, the action and resulting description are probably best looked at as a unit.

* - such an awfully formal-sounding term, ain't it?

I'm less sure, because sometimes things happen that weren't a result of the players declaring an action

Downtime. That one's easy*.

The one I don't have an answer for is when the PCs are travelling through or adventuring in a well-known area. There's no combat, no exploration, it's not downtime, and the only possibility for social is if-when the PCs interact with each other.

* - and yes I know Downtime doesn't (yet) exist as a pillar of play, but it should; and until it does the scene you describe probably remains uncategorized.

Exactly. It doesn't exist as a pillar, but it obviously is part of the game.

I would actually think that Exploration is poorly named, and that going through an area they are familiar with counts, but either way, this helps highlight the breakdown in communication. There are things people are claiming are exploration, that others see as part of a different section of the game.

Good question. One can certainly argue that it's not exploration as there's nothing new being found or learned. One can just as well argue that it is exploration because they're actively seeking something new and simply haven't found it yet (contrast this with simply travelling along a well-known road between two towns, where they're not actively seeking anything new).

Exactly, and I think this is why a lot of us are balking at "exploration = learning new information" because we see going back through the same cave as exploration, but interrogating a prisoner to get new information as social.

I've several times posited there's at least one more element: downtime. It covers some of the gaps, but still leaves a few.

I would agree with that.

 

[Imaro]

And this, this right here? This is why I refuse to engage with you @Imaro.

Because I said what you and other posters have said to dismiss counters to exploration being a challenge?? So it's a good argument for you to use but you don't like it being used against your stance... seems like a dbl standard... but got it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

3rd level slots are expensive at lower levels like tier 2. They aren't slots used only for utility, that's your emergency Revivify slot or your emergency Mass Healing Word. Its not a free slot by any means. At level 5, you can only cast 3rd level spells twice in a day.

If you're a druid, its the same concept for tier 1.

Uh huh.

So, do you think with 2 per day you will never end up having one left over every 3 to 4 days? One 3rd level spell, every three days, longer if they carry rations, then you are looking at it once every 6 days.

Are you really running your players that ragged that by the end of every single day, for six days straight, they have no high level spell slots remaining?

But as a DM, I can't expect the mundane to challenge the fantastic, so I put multiple effects onto the area which i want to challenge their travel. If I want a desert, I could make it so that the natural heat and infertility also stunts the magical growth, causing a dead magic zone.

Honestly, anti-magic is the worst.

Walking through the enchanted forest may subject the players to Wild Magic, making spellcasting dangerous.

But really, I'm not trying to constantly threaten the players through survival challenges, so it doesn't get old because it only occurs when I'm actually using it and not when I think I haven't punished the players enough.

You know what is interesting about both of those? Nothing that doesn't directly interact with magic. Plus, I've already shown how little danger there is in a desert. Sure, without magic you will need to carry water, but that just means you need a handful of casks on your camels.

 

[Baron Opal II]

This is the third post in my explanation of how I do wilderness journeys. Previous posts are #1360 and #1489.

Let's roll back a bit. Last time I mentioned that when I rolled for weather during a sea journey all was fair. How would I handle a storm?

Based on the season and location, hurricanes are a possibility. While I have strong OSR leanings, that would just be mean at 6th level. The ship would most likely sink as would any ship in a hurricane during the Age of Sail. But we can still have a bad storm. When dealing with bad weather, knowing the Beaufort Scale is very helpful to understand how bad is bad. There is a great pictorial on Howtoons on this.

There are no rules that I see in the core three books on how to deal with this. For me, this is something I would do in seven stages for a severe storm. Spells and effects that last less than an hour can help with checks, but won't last the length of a stage or even an appreciable fraction thereof. Spells and effects that last an hour can be considered to last a majority or the whole of a stage. Spells and effects that last 8 hrs or more can be considered to last the whole of the storm. Since the length of the storm is so variable as well as long, tracking round by round, even hour by hour can become tedious.

Concentration spells need only be checked once per stage to see if the caster has been able to maintain them long enough to get the benefit desired.
Stage 1 - DC: 10 - Calm / Breezy / Sighted on the horizon
Stage 2 - DC: 15 - Windy / Sea Foam / Ship rocking
Stage 3 to 6 - DC: 20 - The tiny ship is tossed
Stage 7 - As stage 2

Is the ship laden with cargo or just sea ballast? +5 to DC checks if unladen as the boat can rock +/- 30 degrees.

Rangers and those proficient in Nature get a check to notice that a storm is coming. Otherwise it surprises them and the ship starts at stage 1 rather than trying to prepare.

The captain must make a handling check each stage, starting at stage 2 to see if the ship can be maneuvered beneficially into the waves DC is the same as above. If so, all saves except those for exhaustion are at advantage. The ship must make a saving throw against bludgeoning damage each stage starting stage 2. The ship takes 6d10 damage each stage, half if saved against. A "1" is double damage, a "20" is minimum damage. Stage 2 and 7 only inflict 3d10 damage on a failed save. Stages 3-6 everyone must save or be washed overboard or blown from the rigging. Everyone not below decks (i.e. helping) must make a Constitution save vs. exhaustion each stage.

The PCs can perform actions or make checks as appropriate to help safeguard the crew, repair the ship, or perhaps recover those washed overboard. Tiny hut can provide shelter for crew to run in and out of for quick rests. However, that will collapse stage 3. An arcana check, perhaps, could allow the wizard to try and magically reinforce the tiny hut so that it stays up for the crew.

There's the bare bones of it. I apologize- I had intended to write far more detail about my notes for wilderness journeys but I haven't the time to do it justice. Again, what is in the 5e DMG is really simplistic but even so you can still have interesting aspects of this part of adventuring. What you need to do is research what can happen and translate that into game terms. And, you need to decide what level range you want these obsticales to matter in your game and make changes accordingly. By 5th level, most overland difficulties can be mitigated to the point where only significant bad luck or overreach will harm the party. In my mind, these issues should be impactful until 7th or 8th level. At 9th, "name level" if you will, then I would expect to transition to more fantastical obsticales as a poster mentioned above.

Create food and water - really useful, but you have to be able to carry a day's worth of food and water. It's always fresh, and you need to have the energy to cast it in the morning or evening, but you only ever have a day's worth of food in jeopardy of being lost.

Rangers in difficult terrain- Walking through a swamp is going to be slow regardless if the Dunedain are with you or not. But, you do get to prevent your fighter buddy unexpectedly drowning when they step into a part of the swamp that has no vegetation and is unexpectedly 12 feet deep instead of a foot. (Which happened to me, minus the drowning part, obviously) And, you won't get lost.

 

[Lanefan]

Eh, the idea was explicitly to tie them to successes and failures. Things like making a bunch of noise are going to happen regardless.

Not necessarily, be it through smart use of Silence spells or attempts to be quieter* or just sheer dumb luck; and once the players figure this out they'll become a bit more cautious.

* - e.g. using a padded crowbar to pry the door open slowly rather than just bashing it with shoulders and hammers.

See, I don't always get to high levels, but the system looks like it is designed for 9 to be the mid-point. It is kind of said it was actually designed for that to be an endpoint.

Comes back to my contention that there's too many expected-to-be-playable levels (an issue since 3e).

Can't comment on the level gaps, but in 5e a single goblin who fights smart (doesn't charge into a crowd swinging and stands there waiting to get hit) is easily a match for far more than one or two commoners. If they stick with archery and keep moving and bonus action hiding, the single goblin at night could kill a crowd of people who never even get a chance to fight back.

Even just charging in idiotically they can likely take out three commoners, possibly without even taking any damage.

Which - though unfortunate - makes sense, given that low-grade monsters have been toughened up such that they can present reasonable challenges for low-level PCs. What's a commoner to do?

I get wanting to avoid power creep, but I also just don't like the design philosphy of taking away the players abilities until you can challenge them again. It just feels bad.

Agreed; and to fix it I'd prefer a design philosophy that doesn't give so many abilities so early but instead generally holds them back and more slowly metes them out as the levels advance. (corollary: I don't agree at all with those who (sometimes loudly!) proclaim that a character should be mechanically fully-formed by 3rd level, because where can you go from there that isn't straight-up power creep?)

Exactly. It doesn't exist as a pillar, but it obviously is part of the game.

I would actually think that Exploration is poorly named, and that going through an area they are familiar with counts, but either way, this helps highlight the breakdown in communication. There are things people are claiming are exploration, that others see as part of a different section of the game.

It might be poorly named but hey, what else could it be called? I suspect Exploration, while not a great name, is probably the least-bad.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is the third post in my explanation of how I do wilderness journeys. Previous posts are #1360 and #1489.

Let's roll back a bit. Last time I mentioned that when I rolled for weather during a sea journey all was fair. How would I handle a storm?

Based on the season and location, hurricanes are a possibility. While I have strong OSR leanings, that would just be mean at 6th level. The ship would most likely sink as would any ship in a hurricane during the Age of Sail. But we can still have a bad storm. When dealing with bad weather, knowing the Beaufort Scale is very helpful to understand how bad is bad. There is a great pictorial on Howtoons on this.

There are no rules that I see in the core three books on how to deal with this. For me, this is something I would do in seven stages for a severe storm. Spells and effects that last less than an hour can help with checks, but won't last the length of a stage or even an appreciable fraction thereof. Spells and effects that last an hour can be considered to last a majority or the whole of a stage. Spells and effects that last 8 hrs or more can be considered to last the whole of the storm. Since the length of the storm is so variable as well as long, tracking round by round, even hour by hour can become tedious.

Concentration spells need only be checked once per stage to see if the caster has been able to maintain them long enough to get the benefit desired.
Stage 1 - DC: 10 - Calm / Breezy / Sighted on the horizon
Stage 2 - DC: 15 - Windy / Sea Foam / Ship rocking
Stage 3 to 6 - DC: 20 - The tiny ship is tossed
Stage 7 - As stage 2

Is the ship laden with cargo or just sea ballast? +5 to DC checks if unladen as the boat can rock +/- 30 degrees.

Rangers and those proficient in Nature get a check to notice that a storm is coming. Otherwise it surprises them and the ship starts at stage 1 rather than trying to prepare.

The captain must make a handling check each stage, starting at stage 2 to see if the ship can be maneuvered beneficially into the waves DC is the same as above. If so, all saves except those for exhaustion are at advantage. The ship must make a saving throw against bludgeoning damage each stage starting stage 2. The ship takes 6d10 damage each stage, half if saved against. A "1" is double damage, a "20" is minimum damage. Stage 2 and 7 only inflict 3d10 damage on a failed save. Stages 3-6 everyone must save or be washed overboard or blown from the rigging. Everyone not below decks (i.e. helping) must make a Constitution save vs. exhaustion each stage.

The PCs can perform actions or make checks as appropriate to help safeguard the crew, repair the ship, or perhaps recover those washed overboard. Tiny hut can provide shelter for crew to run in and out of for quick rests. However, that will collapse stage 3. An arcana check, perhaps, could allow the wizard to try and magically reinforce the tiny hut so that it stays up for the crew.

There's the bare bones of it. I apologize- I had intended to write far more detail about my notes for wilderness journeys but I haven't the time to do it justice. Again, what is in the 5e DMG is really simplistic but even so you can still have interesting aspects of this part of adventuring. What you need to do is research what can happen and translate that into game terms. And, you need to decide what level range you want these obsticales to matter in your game and make changes accordingly. By 5th level, most overland difficulties can be mitigated to the point where only significant bad luck or overreach will harm the party. In my mind, these issues should be impactful until 7th or 8th level. At 9th, "name level" if you will, then I would expect to transition to more fantastical obsticales as a poster mentioned above.

This sort of reads close to a skill challenge. The only part I'm really uncertain about is the captain making a check. It decides a lot about what is going on, and the PCs have no way to do anything about it. I'm also not exactly sure what they are making checks for. Sure, they can grab people washed overboard if there are any, but if you have a crew of trained seamen, they are going to be experts on how to handle the ship, not the party. And repairing the ship is likely going to require tool proficiency, which not everyone can have.

So, while I like the idea on the broad sense, the details are escaping me of the best way to handle it.

Create food and water - really useful, but you have to be able to carry a day's worth of food and water. It's always fresh, and you need to have the energy to cast it in the morning or evening, but you only ever have a day's worth of food in jeopardy of being lost.

While technically true, remember that per the base line rules in 5e, eating a single days worth of food at any point during the 3+con mod day window means that you suffer no ill-effects. So, if you have a days worth of food every 3 days, you are fine.

This is another reason why food is just not an issue in 5e. 3 days of rations is actually good for 9 days if you are willing to push,