D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Chaosmancer]

The number one thing that impacts the survival of the ship is how well the captain is able to steer the ship along the waves. You want to go into the storm, otherwise the wind and waves will slap into the side and flip the ship over. Especially if you have an empty hold. But, if you cut directly across high waves you cause the keel and hull to flex. This can crack the hull or split the ship. A skilled captain is needed to guide the ship so that it takes the least damage. In a really bad storm you'll probably lose a mast or two.

It would really suck if the captain was washed overboard...

Furthermore, in the larger ships there were specific sails that were used to guide the ship in storms. They were small, but still needed to be adjusted in the rigging. So there were sailors up there adjusting sails, tied off with safety lines to prevent them getting blown off. Most sailors who were on the deck tied themselves to the mast or the railing. A cubic foot of water weighs about 60 pounds, and several cubic yards of water will be crashing over the decks. Being able to minimize the overwash through skillful piloting makes it easier.

I agree with all of this, but this is one area where I actually will call upon the word of Verisimilitude (I feel dirty )

See, if we hired a skilled captain and crew... then they have a plan to deal with the storm without our help. If the captain is washed overboard, then the First Mate takes over, and there is likely a person who takes command of the First Mate's responsibilities.

Additionally, adjusting the sails properly is a skill that many PCs won't have, and is something the crew is likely trained to do and knows how to do.

In many ways, I'm picturing this scenario like having a biker gang try and help out in a 4 star kitchen during the dinner rush. Unless they are shockingly skilled (have proficiency in water vehicles) all they are likely to be doing is getting in the way of the well-oiled machinery that is the kitchen staff, and causing more problems than they are solving.

Now, obviously there are ways for the DM to make this work, but the more the crew can handle the storm, the less invested the PCs are (because there is nothing for them to do). While on the other side, the more the PCs can do to save the ship and the people, the more strange it becomes that they hired people who seemingly can't sail through the area they said they could sail through.

Having someone that can go below decks and warp wood back into place, or a floating disk cast just outside a rupture could be critical. The cleric casting resist elements on the crew member steering the ship so they can handle getting washed with freezing cold water could be key. Flying up to the rigging would be an astoundingly bad idea, but having a fly on the thief as a backup in case they slip could be useful. The great strength of the fighter can help steady a line or a boom as the crew unfouls the necessary rigging.

Not a malicious point, but just noting... other than the fighter holding something, every example used magic.

So it comes down to

• The ship is going to take damage, slowly, but perhaps catastrophically.
• If the ship goes down everyone's probably going to die.
• The captain (or who's ever steering) can mitigate, but not eliminate the damage.
• He might not be able to mitigate it enough, regardless.
• The crew can help the captain mitigate the damage.
• Some crew are going to be lost.
• If the PCs stay below decks they will be safe, unless the ship sinks.
• If the PCs help on deck, they are subject to the same hazards as the crew (which are bad).

So then it becomes how can the PCs

• Help the captain steer the ship?
• Replace the captain to steer the ship if he gets washed overboard?
• Help the crew keep the ship responsive to the captain's orders?
• Maintain the endurance of the captain and crew?
• Prevent the captain and crew from getting washed overboard?
• Rescue the captain and crew if they get washed overboard (which will be hard to impossible in a storm)?
• Fix / repair the ship so it doesn't come apart beneath them?

These are good lists and good questions. My concern is just that, unless you are a sailor, I don't see how you can help with a lot of this except via magical means. Which means that the characters who can do things like cast "Protection from Energy: Cold" or "Enhance Ability" are going to get some mileage out of those spells, but it seems the biggest role of the party is supporting the people who were trained for this situation, which is an odd place to put them.

Not a bad place, and tailoring the situation to the players and thinking outside the box can lead to some cool moments, but it could also very easily slip into the party feeling like there is nothing they could or even should do, because they hired the best captain and crew, and those people know how to survive a storm.

 

[Chaosmancer]

To be fair though, 5e does have a LOT of player facing rules.

Take the evolution of jumping. Pre-3e,jumping was whatever the DM thought it was. In 3 and 4e, jumping is based on skill+die roll.

In 5e you just jump Str feet. No roll. No chance of failure. It’s just another movement type.

Can’t get much more player facing than that.

Until the DM decides to have you roll anyways, because you are doing something and therefore you must roll.

I've had to tell many DMs what the rules are, because they never bothered to look and see if there were rules for jumping, they just figured the players should always roll. Same with climbing and swimming. I cannot tell you the number of times a DM in 5e has had me roll athletics for climbing a rope up a wall.

Edit: This is slightly bitter. Apologies, I know "rules can't prevent people from ignoring the rules" but this gets to me in this particular instance.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I do think one of the big divides here, and it has been a big divide in the hobby for a while, is between people who have a looser sense of what portions of play really need rules and procedures and what can be more open.

 

[tetrasodium]

I agree with all of this, but this is one area where I actually will call upon the word of Verisimilitude (I feel dirty )

See, if we hired a skilled captain and crew... then they have a plan to deal with the storm without our help. If the captain is washed overboard, then the First Mate takes over, and there is likely a person who takes command of the First Mate's responsibilities.

Additionally, adjusting the sails properly is a skill that many PCs won't have, and is something the crew is likely trained to do and knows how to do.

In many ways, I'm picturing this scenario like having a biker gang try and help out in a 4 star kitchen during the dinner rush. Unless they are shockingly skilled (have proficiency in water vehicles) all they are likely to be doing is getting in the way of the well-oiled machinery that is the kitchen staff, and causing more problems than they are solving.

Now, obviously there are ways for the DM to make this work, but the more the crew can handle the storm, the less invested the PCs are (because there is nothing for them to do). While on the other side, the more the PCs can do to save the ship and the people, the more strange it becomes that they hired people who seemingly can't sail through the area they said they could sail through.



Not a malicious point, but just noting... other than the fighter holding something, every example used magic.



These are good lists and good questions. My concern is just that, unless you are a sailor, I don't see how you can help with a lot of this except via magical means. Which means that the characters who can do things like cast "Protection from Energy: Cold" or "Enhance Ability" are going to get some mileage out of those spells, but it seems the biggest role of the party is supporting the people who were trained for this situation, which is an odd place to put them.

Not a bad place, and tailoring the situation to the players and thinking outside the box can lead to some cool moments, but it could also very easily slip into the party feeling like there is nothing they could or even should do, because they hired the best captain and crew, and those people know how to survive a storm.

Going to add onto the all of the examples use magic bit a little. You mention the crew &note that all of the examples use magic but there are plenty of nonmahic things that can be done. At one point it mentioned fly to adjust rigging rather than just climbing it as designed with athletics or acrobatics. At another point it mentioned using a one round absorb elements on the helmsman rather than trying to shield him from the spray or somehow stabilize them (perhaps with the 50 feet of rope nearly everyone has).
Now its possible that those kind of things just weren't considered but it sounds a lot like the entire situation was created to remove player skills under the reasoning of "because of the storm" after removing the crew.

Even some of the magic like thst floating disk is a stretch in the GM may I realm or straight up job for aquaman. Unforgivably for 5e in this case is that there used to be rules for how those things including the original examples would help the skilled crew with the bonus types & DMs best friend I linked earlier. Instead the entire situation and split the rules involved are basically "ask your gm" edit: or worse GM listed quicktime events

 

[Faolyn]

Having someone that can go below decks and warp wood back into place, or a floating disk cast just outside a rupture could be critical. The cleric casting resist elements on the crew member steering the ship so they can handle getting washed with freezing cold water could be key. Flying up to the rigging would be an astoundingly bad idea, but having a fly on the thief as a backup in case they slip could be useful. The great strength of the fighter can help steady a line or a boom as the crew unfouls the necessary rigging.

A few sessions back, we had an enormous (magically-caused) storm wrecking our ship. Or GM let the storm sorcerer's control winds help to keep the storm at bay while we fought the baddies, and the cleric cast water walk on us just in case we fell overboard.

As an added bonus, when the threat passed, I still had water walk and was able to jump down onto the ocean's surface and managed to reclaim some of the jetsam.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Some drive by comments since I have a moment.

I agree with all of this, but this is one area where I actually will call upon the word of Verisimilitude (I feel dirty )

See, if we hired a skilled captain and crew... then they have a plan to deal with the storm without our help. If the captain is washed overboard, then the First Mate takes over, and there is likely a person who takes command of the First Mate's responsibilities.

You are correct. A "win" in this case, however, is about 30% hull damage, losing one of two masts, and a loss of 30% of the crew. That's "acceptable losses". The highly competent crew is not going to simply sail through this without loss.

Additionally, adjusting the sails properly is a skill that many PCs won't have, and is something the crew is likely trained to do and knows how to do.

Someone might have the Sailor background.

In many ways, I'm picturing this scenario like having a biker gang try and help out in a 4 star kitchen during the dinner rush. Unless they are shockingly skilled (have proficiency in water vehicles) all they are likely to be doing is getting in the way of the well-oiled machinery that is the kitchen staff, and causing more problems than they are solving.

Quite possible. Again, 1/3 losses if the PCs chose to not get involved.

Not a malicious point, but just noting... other than the fighter holding something, every example used magic.

That's okay. All I could think of on the fly. I play wizards on those rare occasions I do play.

These are good lists and good questions. My concern is just that, unless you are a sailor, I don't see how you can help with a lot of this except via magical means. Which means that the characters who can do things like cast "Protection from Energy: Cold" or "Enhance Ability" are going to get some mileage out of those spells, but it seems the biggest role of the party is supporting the people who were trained for this situation, which is an odd place to put them.

Not a bad place, and tailoring the situation to the players and thinking outside the box can lead to some cool moments, but it could also very easily slip into the party feeling like there is nothing they could or even should do, because they hired the best captain and crew, and those people know how to survive a storm.

This is a situation where correct decisions can still lead to loss, partial or total. Having extra people who are superhumanly strong or agile (Fighter with STR 20), or have magic that can fix otherwise tragic errors can be a great boon. Something than can aid visibility alone is a great help. If someone falls overboard they will probably drown because there is too little light and too much wind and spray to actually see someone that isn't 10-15 ft in front of you.

If the ship makes it through with no loss of life? That would be a wonder and undoubtedly earn gratitude and loyalty. And that's the thing about this. For the most part, all you had to do to get to Oregon along the Oregon Trail was walk for three months. Lots of people didn't make it, and there were professional guides all along the way.

 

[Mordhau]

I think the storm is an example of where it's potentially easier to think of things you can do if you have magic.

Which, of course, is why people like magic.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You are correct. A "win" in this case, however, is about 30% hull damage, losing one of two masts, and a loss of 30% of the crew. That's "acceptable losses". The highly competent crew is not going to simply sail through this without loss.

That doesn't change my point though. Much of this challenge is relying on the skills of people who know what they are doing.If that is the level of damage they expect from getting caught in this storm, then it is likely the damage they are going to receive. It is very hard for the PCs to alter these numbers by much

Someone might have the Sailor background.

And they might not. Can't assume that they do, unless you've made this challenge specifically for a group that has a sailor in it.

Quite possible. Again, 1/3 losses if the PCs chose to not get involved.

Do the players know that they face 1/3 losses if they don't get involved? Do they know that if they get involved and fail it could be 75% losses?

Again, the numbers don't matter as much as the situation, which is a bunch of amatuers being asked to help a crew of seasoned professionals. We intuitively know that we need to follow their instructions and that they are our best chance. But we also know that getting involved in an emergency when you have no idea what you are doing, can be more harm than good.

This is a situation where correct decisions can still lead to loss, partial or total. Having extra people who are superhumanly strong or agile (Fighter with STR 20), or have magic that can fix otherwise tragic errors can be a great boon. Something than can aid visibility alone is a great help. If someone falls overboard they will probably drown because there is too little light and too much wind and spray to actually see someone that isn't 10-15 ft in front of you.

If the ship makes it through with no loss of life? That would be a wonder and undoubtedly earn gratitude and loyalty. And that's the thing about this. For the most part, all you had to do to get to Oregon along the Oregon Trail was walk for three months. Lots of people didn't make it, and there were professional guides all along the way.

Strength is only useful if it is guided, and that is I think the issue I'm seeing where I'm struggling with this. The best way I can see that this happens is if the First Mate or someone else tells the PCs exactly what to do, and where to do it. Maybe if they have magic they can do other things, but for the most part they have to follow instructions, because the crew has to follow instructions.

But, the first mate can't just expect the party to follow the crew, because they don't understand the jargon, so, during an emergency, they have to stop directing the crew and separately direct the players. And the players aren't making choices, they are simply being directed and told what to roll.

I'm not trying to be contrarian or anything, I'm honestly looking at this specific example and wondering how this would work fictionally, because the fiction is at odds with the goal of having the players engage and take heroic action to save the ship.

As to the Oregon Trail, well, yes that is true, it also discounts that the most dangerous things about that trip aren't things that apply to DnD. In DnD a party by about 6th level walking 3 months just about anywhere is going to be fine. They don't get infections, they don't get diseases that can't be easily cured, and they need far less supplies.

Again, I like the mechanical set-up of the ship at storm for the most part, skill challenges do seem to be the way to go, and I like the end goal, it is just that the narrative of this particular version seems counterintuitive.

 

[Hussar]

Until the DM decides to have you roll anyways, because you are doing something and therefore you must roll.

I've had to tell many DMs what the rules are, because they never bothered to look and see if there were rules for jumping, they just figured the players should always roll. Same with climbing and swimming. I cannot tell you the number of times a DM in 5e has had me roll athletics for climbing a rope up a wall.

Edit: This is slightly bitter. Apologies, I know "rules can't prevent people from ignoring the rules" but this gets to me in this particular instance.

Yes, well, you can lead a horse to water.... And, I think I might be guilty on the swim one. Old habits. But, that is my point. These are old habits, not actually part of the game. The game makes the rules very player facing.

 

[Hussar]

I think the storm is an example of where it's potentially easier to think of things you can do if you have magic.

Which, of course, is why people like magic.

There's the other part of this too. The magic rules are 100% player facing. No DM EVER starts telling players that his fireball just doesn't do the listed damage because it's raining.