D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Chaosmancer]

Well yeah it's different if the pcs are the crew.

Personally, if that were the case, I would also make sure that sailing and navigation were both skills.

Well, in a way they are, that's what the tool proficiencies are for

 

[Hussar]

Now that is entirely fair. I wasn't aware of how small the ships were (I think I'm mostly picturing the age of sail where you had ships of the line but also most crews were around 30, which is what the DMG gives us) but if the PCs make up a large portion of the crew, then of course all my issues fly out the window.

Just to nitpick, the DMG says 20 for a sailing ship with a 100 ton cargo hold. Which, frankly, is complete nonsense. Sorry, this is one of my bugaboos. The naval stuff in D&D is obviously written by the same people that think swords weigh 15 pounds.

 

[Weiley31]

Are you talking about AiME? There will be a new 5e version by Fria Ligan once they wrap things up for their One Ring Kickstarter.

Bingo! You are correct. And I can't wait for the new 5E version.

 

[Lanefan]

That doesn't change my point though. Much of this challenge is relying on the skills of people who know what they are doing.If that is the level of damage they expect from getting caught in this storm, then it is likely the damage they are going to receive. It is very hard for the PCs to alter these numbers by much

Strength is only useful if it is guided, and that is I think the issue I'm seeing where I'm struggling with this. The best way I can see that this happens is if the First Mate or someone else tells the PCs exactly what to do, and where to do it. Maybe if they have magic they can do other things, but for the most part they have to follow instructions, because the crew has to follow instructions.

But, the first mate can't just expect the party to follow the crew, because they don't understand the jargon, so, during an emergency, they have to stop directing the crew and separately direct the players. And the players aren't making choices, they are simply being directed and told what to roll.

I'm not trying to be contrarian or anything, I'm honestly looking at this specific example and wondering how this would work fictionally, because the fiction is at odds with the goal of having the players engage and take heroic action to save the ship.

Heroic action, or any action at all?

Big difference.

Sure the PCs might not understand the jargon, but they'll understand "Grab that rope - that one! - pull it tight, keep it tight, and don't let go of it till I tell you to".

It's an interesting turnabout, as in a situation like this the PCs become support characters for a while; with the real heroes being the ship's officers and crew.

 

[Lanefan]

Heh, since sea campaigns are a bit of my thing, I'd point out that it's entirely plausible that the PC's ARE the crew. I mean, if you are doing historically accurate ships - as in around 15th maybe early 16th century ships, most of them would have crews of five or six. Ten at the most. The whole "hundreds of sailors", ship of the line, Pirates of the Caribbean is really, really anachronistic.

Perhaps, but something like the Mary Rose (mid 1500s) fits in to any setting that has field plate armour (from about the same era); or the late-1400s ships that Columbus sailed.

So, it's quite plausible that the PC's plus maybe one or two NPC's are the entire crew of a cog. If the PC's are just passengers, well, sure, leave it to the professionals. But, again, your crew is likely, maybe, a half dozen to a dozen NPC's. Losing one or two is a major deal. Those ships were SMALL.

Funny story. The Sea Ghost - the ship the PC's are supposed to get at the outset of Ghosts of Saltmarsh, is a very accurate Hansa Cog in all ways other than the fact that it is about twice the size of what it should be. A Hansa Cog is usually around 50 feet long and the Dutch used it to sail practically everywhere. The Sea Ghost is nearly a hundred feet long. It's freaking HUGE.

The Sea Ghost, as written, is a very oddly designed ship with nowhere near enough sail area to move it in anything short of a gale. If it also had banks of oars it'd be fine, but it doesn't.

D&D sailing ships really are puny by modern standards. Heck, you don't even need a crew with a 50 foot boat in Canada. Two people can operate it. Not easily, but, it certainly can be done. Put an engine on it, and one person can operate it without too much difficulty. You don't even legally need a crew until 100 feet, IIRC.

Modern sailboats are far simpler and easier to operate than their 18th-century counterparts.

 

[Lanefan]

Just to nitpick, the DMG says 20 for a sailing ship with a 100 ton cargo hold. Which, frankly, is complete nonsense. Sorry, this is one of my bugaboos. The naval stuff in D&D is obviously written by the same people that think swords weigh 15 pounds.

I always assume those crew numbers are for long voyages where the crew work in shifts; thus only 1/3 or maybe 1/2 of them are actually sailing the ship at any given time.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Just to nitpick, the DMG says 20 for a sailing ship with a 100 ton cargo hold. Which, frankly, is complete nonsense. Sorry, this is one of my bugaboos. The naval stuff in D&D is obviously written by the same people that think swords weigh 15 pounds.

Hey, no worries, I like random trivia stuff

 

[Chaosmancer]

Heroic action, or any action at all?

Big difference.

Sure the PCs might not understand the jargon, but they'll understand "Grab that rope - that one! - pull it tight, keep it tight, and don't let go of it till I tell you to".

It's an interesting turnabout, as in a situation like this the PCs become support characters for a while; with the real heroes being the ship's officers and crew.

Sure, but like I said, just following orders isn't something that the PCs tend to do. They don't exactly want to be directed, roll what they were ordered to roll, and rely just on chance to come out ahead.

Additionally, depending on the emergency situation (I've never been on a sailing boat in the middle of a vicious storm) the time it took them to point out that rope, "that one!" is time that could have led to another disaster. It is likely time that they don't have.

I'm probably nitpicking, but stuff like that can jar people, when it ends up seeming more contrived.

 

[Mordhau]

Yeah a challenge that involves the PCs following instructions from the NPCs is not a very good challenge.

It's not something I think should be strictly avoided, I can think of several circumstances where I might want to approach it that way just to establish the clear presence of the storm in a tangible way, but it wouldn't be for it's own sake, but because the storm is important in some other way* and I'd breeze through it fairly quickly.

Whereas if the PCs are the crew it could be more of a challenge in it's own right.



*Like, for example, after the storm clears they find the floating wreckage of another ship and that is the really encounter that matters.

 

[Hussar]

I always assume those crew numbers are for long voyages where the crew work in shifts; thus only 1/3 or maybe 1/2 of them are actually sailing the ship at any given time.

Yeah, that's where it gets really sticky. For the time periods we're talking about, they didn't generally sail at night. Number one, unless it's a clear night, it's very difficult to navigate. Two, it's just too dangerous. You really didn't want to sail more than a few miles from some shore, just in case. It's the same reason that airplanes don't fly over open ocean if they can possibly avoid it.

Again, a three shift sailing ship is pretty anachronistic. But, yes, I do agree that the Sea Ghost was designed by someone who looked at a book probably didn't have the actual dimensions of a cog, and decided that 100 feet was a good idea. That thing would be immense by the standards of the day. Now, sure, you have ships like the Mary Rose, but, again, this is the Ferrari of the day. Extremely expensive to build. And, very much not a ship for shipping.

Now, if we want big assed ships of the time, we should be looking at the Chinese. They were MILES ahead of the Europeans when it came to ship building at the time. Far better designed, built and FAR bigger than anything the Europeans could launch. Safer too - internal bulkheads. But, D&D always seems to default to Age of Sail ships for the game, despite them being centuries more advanced than anything else in the game.