What If...?

[Maxperson]

Two different timelines will have different absolute points. Why? As I understand it, absoluteness of a point is reletave to the person trying to change it. In the case of this episode, it was absolute because Strange was the one trying to change it. Which is impossible, because: paradox.

But the Ancient One could have changed it, if she was so inclined. No paradox = no absolute point.

Where do you get that from? It isn't what I gathered from that at all. What I gathered was that it isn't an absolute point because of paradox, but rather it's an absolute point because it causes a major change in the timeline(Stephen becoming Dr. Strange). She wouldn't have been able to change that any more than he could have.

 

[Rune]

Where do you get that from? It isn't what I gathered from that at all. What I gathered was that it isn't an absolute point because of paradox, but rather it's an absolute point because it causes a major change in the timeline(Stephen becoming Dr. Strange). She wouldn't have been able to change that any more than he could have.

The Ancient One explicitly tells Strange that the reason he can’t change the absolute point is because it would result in a paradox.

(She actually implies it can’t be changed at all for that reason, but that can’t logically be true, because if she did it, it wouldn’t result in a paradox.)

 

[Maxperson]

The Ancient One explicitly tells Strange that the reason he can’t change the absolute point is because it would result in a paradox.

(She actually implies it can’t be changed at all for that reason, but that can’t logically be true, because if she did it, it wouldn’t result in a paradox.)

What he says is...

Dr. Strange: Help me bring her back.

What she says is...

Ancient One. I can't. No one can. Her death is an absolute point in time.

There is no implication. She says straight out that nobody can change it.

 

[Rune]

What he says is...

Dr. Strange: Help me bring her back.

What she says is...

Ancient One. I can't. No one can. Her death is an absolute point in time.

There is no implication. She says straight out that nobody can change it.

I misspoke. It was not an implication. It was simply logically incorrect. Or a lie.

She tells him exactly why this absolute point can’t be changed: because it will mean Strange never becomes the Sorcerer Supreme. The word “paradox” comes out of Strange’s mouth, not hers, but he is clarifying what she is talking about.

But it’s only accurate for Strange. If anyone else were to try, it would not be a paradox.

Either she is wrong about the cause of an absolute point, or she is wrong (or lying) when she claims that no one can change it. Those are the only two possibilities.

My money is on her lying, but that’s just a guess based on her behavior across all of the timelines we’ve seen her in. She wants Strange to become Sorcerer Supreme. For good reason, of course. Defeating Dormammu would be reason enough alone.



* Okay, one more possibility: she is right about the cause being a paradox and right that no one can change it, but for unrelated reasons. In this case, where she is wrong is in stating that the cause of the absolute point (paradox) is meaningful in any way). This seems far-fetched to me, but the multiverse is a strange place. No pun intended.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I misspoke. It was not an implication. It was simply logically incorrect. Or a lie.

So you are arguing logic in a universe where magic and mutants exist?

 

[Rune]

So you are arguing logic in a universe where magic and mutants exist?

Internal logic, yes.

The existence of magic or mutants in no way precludes the existence of logic. Without logic, suspension of disbelief, and hence successful fantasy, is impossible.

 

[Maxperson]

I misspoke. It was not an implication. It was simply logically incorrect. Or a lie.

She tells him exactly why this absolute point can’t be changed: because it will mean Strange never becomes the Sorcerer Supreme. The word “paradox” comes out of Strange’s mouth, not hers, but he is clarifying what she is talking about.

Or he's assuming. She's telling him that nobody can change it, because the universe won't allow it. It's a fixed point in history.

But it’s only accurate for Strange. If anyone else were to try, it would not be a paradox.

Now you're assuming. Dr. Strange isn't all knowing. He can be wrong and say something that, and if you take what he says in the context of what she said, you can see that he's guessing. She then corrects him and says he's wrong. She doesn't need to do that. There's no reason to tell him that nobody can change it since she wouldn't help him anyway.

Either she is wrong about the cause of an absolute point, or she is wrong (or lying) when she claims that no one can change it. Those are the only two possibilities.

No. That's a pretty hefty False Dichotomy. She could be telling the truth and he could be wrong.

* Okay, one more possibility: she is right about the cause being a paradox and right that no one can change it, but for unrelated reasons. In this case, where she is wrong is in stating that the cause of the absolute point (paradox) is meaningful in any way). This seems far-fetched to me, but the multiverse is a strange place. No pun intended.

That would be a fourth possibility. Paradox may not be the reason at all.

 

[Maxperson]

The Ancient One explicitly tells Strange that the reason he can’t change the absolute point is because it would result in a paradox.

No she doesn't. She never says or implies that at all. Strange guess that it would be a paradox if he did it, but she maintains that nobody can change the fixed point and she could easily be telling the truth. Paradox may not even be against the marvel universe rules. We just don't know.

 

[Rune]

No she doesn't. She never says or implies that at all. Strange guess that it would be a paradox if he did it, but she maintains that nobody can change the fixed point and she could easily be telling the truth. Paradox may not even be against the marvel universe rules. We just don't know.

Her exact words: “Without her death, you would never have defeated Dormammu and become the Sorcerer Supreme, and the guardian of the Eye of Agamotto. If you erase her death, you never start your journey.”

This is the reason she gives for the point being absolute. Her words, not mine. That reason that she describes is a paradox!

 

[Maxperson]

Her exact words: “Without her death, you would never have defeated Dormammu and become the Sorcerer Supreme, and the guardian of the Eye of Agamotto. If you erase her death, you never start your journey.”

Correct. That is not paradox. It's just the universe wanting him to go the way it wants him to go. If SHE prevents his girlfriend from dying, he never defeats Dormammu without paradox, so she can't do it either. You're reading into her words that which is not there. She tells him the truth. NOBODY can prevent her death.

It's entirely possible that there are two reasons he cannot prevent the death. 1) it would be a paradox. 2) It's a fixed point.

There's no reason to assume that she is lying and paradox is the only reason, if it's even a reason.