Pathfinder 2E Looks like I will be running a PF2e game in a few weeks...suggestions?

[dave2008]

That was a little long in the tooth, but I think it gets what I'm going for across.

Maybe I am just dense, but that example didn't help me at all. How was that supposed to different from any other adventure site / skill usage?

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Maybe I am just dense, but that example didn't help me at all. How was that supposed to different from any other adventure site / skill usage?

Help you do what? I was just sharing an example that explicates how skills relate to decision making in the dynamic I'm going for in regards to play skill.

I don't know that its different per say depending on what you mean, in that I'm sure people already do it intuitively, but I needed to make it explicit to explore how it intersects with OSR design, without necessarily adopting the OSR system assumptions.

E.g. in Gygaxian Skilled Play you would find things by having the world described to you, and then as a player picking up on the clues and describing how you search. In this, your perception score handles that, as you might expect in a more modern non-OSR framework. But the design is about acknowledging this, and then placing the decision making above that level, to create a replacement framework for the skill 'lost' in converting descriptions of hands doing certain things to intricately described environmental objects, over to the automation of a skill roll-- the puzzle of the moon murals, the apparati, and the secret passage in the main room can't be solved with a dice roll, it has to be understood and the dungeon has to be interacted with in the right way... but since its not in the form of a simple object in the environment, you don't just open it with a thievery check or something on a single mechanism, but the skill checks still play a role in executing the smaller interactions that make up the larger example, and in gathering the information to understand how the dungeon puzzle works.

 

[dave2008]

Help you do what? I was just sharing an example that explicates how skills relate to decision making in the dynamic I'm going for in regards to play skill.

Yes, it didn't do that for me, like at all. But like I said, I'm dense sometimes.

I don't know that its different per say depending on what you mean, in that I'm sure people already do it intuitively, but I needed to make it explicit to explore how it intersects with OSR design, without necessarily adopting the OSR system assumptions.

I guess I didn't see anything explicit in your example. what are you making explicit?

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Yes, it didn't do that for me, like at all. But like I said, I'm dense sometimes.

I guess I didn't see anything explicit in your example. what are you making explicit?

Skill checks gain information, or solve simple problems, the lost problem solving those rolls "skip" needs to come from elsewhere.

Broader puzzles that arent fodder for a single dice check, but that dice xhecks contribute to the players solving of accomplishes that in a modern skill system like pf2es.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, my goal is to reconcile it (for me, not anyone else in particular, I don't have any 'OSR folks' in my group, its me trying to actualize my playstyle) so that the process of exploring the space of the adventure (lets say a dungeon, for the sake of argument) is one player decision making, but where skills provide information and execution in interacting with that environment.

Absolutely legit. This is just an area where I've long since concluded what some of the OSR considers a virtue I kind of consider a "sin" (that is, offloading the maximum amount of capability in play on the player rather than trying to keep a balance between player and character, and if you have to fail, leaning toward character), so I tend to be sensitive to it when it comes up.

 

[dave2008]

Skill checks gain information, or solve simple problems, the lost problem solving those rolls "skip" needs to come from elsewhere.

Broader puzzles that arent fodder for a single dice check, but that dice xhecks contribute to the players solving of accomplishes that in a modern skill system like pf2es.

OK, let's just stop. I really have no idea what your saying. I mean the bolded part makes no sense to me at all. I'm probably just tired,

 

[kenada]

It absolutely does. But its a tenet of faith with at least some of the OSR folks that that's not a virtue (see the whole "the answer is not on your character sheet" business).

The way that form of “skilled play” gets held up as an ideal is one of the things I really dislike about OSR-style play. I don’t think that the game should be about cleverly avoiding rolling skills or scores just because they’re terrible. It’s an overreaction to a particular style of adjudicating skills that people associate with 3e+ D&D, and thus must be “bad”. I’m more of the fan of the Alexandrian’s approach: player skill unlocks character skill. You have to search the right place to get to make a skill check, but you don’t have to be exceptionally precise about it. If you are, then I see no reason not to give the player the thing they found, but if not, they still get to make a roll.

 

[kenada]

OK, let's just stop. I really have no idea what your saying. I mean the bolded part makes no sense to me at all. I'm probably just tired,

There’s a strain of thought in OSR-style play that associates “skilled play” with cleverly avoiding whatever is on your character sheet. You’re expected to solve problems via your skill as a player. If your character is apparently incapable, then that’s just a challenge to figure out a way around that.

What @The-Magic-Sword is trying to do is replicate the experience of “skilled play” without that bit of silliness. Most games have some form of skill systems. Even non-modern ones like BRP or Traveler have them. I don’t think working around what’s on your sheet is all that interesting, though I suppose it’s skillful in a sense.

 

[kenada]

I should add that the criticism of skill systems is that they render characters incompetent by default. Prior to their introduction in D&D, you were purportedly able to solve whatever problems as long as you were clever about it. If a horse broke loose and needed to be captured, you could do it no matter who your character is provided you described a suitable solution. With a skill system, if you don’t have the right skill to deal with animals, then you’ll fail no matter what. It’s similar to the complaints that have been levied at PF2 and skill feats.

 

[kenada]

I'm still working on my big west marches project and its coming along pretty well (really I've been dragging it out since another campaign needs to end first, and we want Guns and Gears to come out and give us flintlocks) I've actually been thinking a lot about OSR adventure design and how to perform it in pf2e, and it doesn't seem hard at all. Actually @kenada its funny you mention that, because I've been working through some of that stuff mentally reading the threads over in the DND Discussion area in terms of my own game.

I can’t remember. Did we ever discuss what you were doing for wilderness exploration? Is that even a thing in a West Marches game? I posted a procedure over in the WWN thread and would love to get more feedback on it. Our next session is the 25th, so I’m antsy about it because we won’t be able to test it until then (assuming we get back to wilderness exploration).