D&D General D&D Combat is fictionless

[FrogReaver]

It isn't about "legal". It is about expecting good, sensible fiction to come out when you shove crummy fiction in.

"The combat system doesn't correct my own mistakes," isn't a compelling position.

It wasn’t a mistake.

 

[Garthanos]

You mean Tableau Vivant sans Grille, I assume.

Pretty sure avec Grille was the target.

 

[Maxperson]

It isn't about "legal". It is about expecting good, sensible fiction to come out when you shove crummy fiction in.

"The combat system doesn't correct my own mistakes," isn't a compelling position.

The point doesn't change just because it was a slightly flawed example. We can come up with the orcs are in the room behind an illusion of an empty room that drops a few seconds after someone walks through the door. Still not the best fictional set-up, but it's sufficient to create a situation where orcs that aren't being stealthy and the fighter are in an initiative situation like I put forth in my other post.

The point isn't the fictional set-up. The point is that 30 orcs can all move 60 feet before the fighter can lift a toe. That doesn't change regardless of set-up, once you are into initiative.

 

[generic]

Pretty sure avec Grille was the target.

Oh no, we here in the intelligentsia treat all Romance languages as one.

 

[clearstream]

The point doesn't change just because it was a slightly flawed example. We can come up with the orcs are in the room behind an illusion of an empty room that drops a few seconds after someone walks through the door. Still not the best fictional set-up, but it's sufficient to create a situation where orcs that aren't being stealthy and the fighter are in an initiative situation like I put forth in my other post.

The point isn't the fictional set-up. The point is that 30 orcs can all move 60 feet before the fighter can lift a toe. That doesn't change regardless of set-up, once you are into initiative.

A fighter walks through a 5' wide door into a room and pauses precisely 30 feet in. Behind an illusionary wall dividing the room are 30 magically frozen orcs, all of whom are precisely 60' from the door, who will unfreeze this very moment. The wall drops, the fighter and orcs see each other. Initiative is rolled. For any reason that suits us, the orcs sprint to the door first. There are only three squares adjacent to the door so only three orcs can reach them, the rest must extend into the room from the door, probably filling the squares between the fighter and the door.

Your fiction caused trouble for you because it relied on part of the future turning out how you decided in advance. In-world, Han shot first... the fighter did waffle. Alas, that is what the die roll told us. Even if I assume a standing start, I can if I am willing include in my emergent fiction any explanation - a momentary freeze, a stumble, the fighter was distracted, or whatever - that passes it off. I can worry about whether the fighter ought to have moved a few squares, or I can accept it as a fair - but not precise - representation, and suspend disbelief.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe." For me, that must always be borne in mind when interpreting the systems of symbols that we call games. The fighter is not a fighter. The squares are not locations in-world. There are no orcs.

 

[FrogReaver]

A fighter walks through a 5' wide door into a room and pauses precisely 30 feet in. Behind an illusionary wall dividing the room are 30 magically frozen orcs, all of whom are precisely 60' from the door, who will unfreeze this very moment. The wall drops, the fighter and orcs see each other. Initiative is rolled. For any reason that suits us, the orcs sprint to the door first. There are only three squares adjacent to the door so only three orcs can reach them, the rest must extend into the room from the door, probably filling the squares between the fighter and the door.

Glad we are all on the same page on this example

Your fiction caused trouble for you because it relied on part of the future turning out how you decided in advance. In-world, Han shot first... the fighter did waffle. Alas, that is what the die roll told us. Even if I assume a standing start, I can if I am willing include in my emergent fiction any explanation - a momentary freeze, a stumble, the fighter was distracted, or whatever - that passes it off. I can worry about whether the fighter ought to have moved a few squares, or I can accept it as a fair - but not precise - representation, and suspend disbelief.

This brings me back around to the main premise of the thread. I don't care whether the Fighter waffled, stumbled, froze etc.
1. What really matters to me is that the orcs are reacting to that waffle/stumble/freeze/etc before it's actually been fictionally established. Initiative alone isn't enough to establish the waffle/stumble/freeze/etc happened. For example, the orcs could have all took the dodge action. In this branch there's no need for a fictional waffle/stumble/freeze on the fighters part. And so, what we have here is an example of orcs acting solely based on fiction that hasn't been generated yet.

2. It's also a bit odd that a waffle/stumble/freeze doesn't ever have any mechanical impact

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe." For me, that must always be borne in mind when interpreting the systems of symbols that we call games. The fighter is not a fighter. The squares are not locations in-world. There are no orcs.

No idea what that means.

 

[clearstream]

This brings me back around to the main premise of the thread. I don't care whether the Fighter waffled, stumbled, froze etc.
1. What really matters to me is that the orcs are reacting to that waffle/stumble/freeze/etc before it's actually been fictionally established. Initiative alone isn't enough to establish the waffle/stumble/freeze/etc happened. For example, the orcs could have all took the dodge action. In this branch there's no need for a fictional waffle/stumble/freeze on the fighters part. And so, what we have here is an example of orcs acting solely based on fiction that hasn't been generated yet.

This for me is the most confusing aspect of your argument. I think that the fiction is emerging from the game as played. There can indeed be branches, and we don't decide what those will look like unless they happen.

You say the orcs are acting based on fiction that hasn't been generated yet, and I say they are acting in accord with the fiction that actually is generated. I'd love to bridge that gap in understanding.

2. It's also a bit odd that a waffle/stumble/freeze doesn't ever have any mechanical impact

The waffle/stumble/freeze is narrative that emerges from the initiative mechanic, as it happened to play out on this occasion.

No idea what that means.

From Wikipedia

"The famous pipe. How people reproached me for it! And yet, could you stuff my pipe? No, it's just a representation, is it not? So if I had written on my picture "This is a pipe", I'd have been lying!"
— René Magritte

It is a nod to the case that a symbol representing something - say a miniature of a fighter, and a page of D&D character scores and features - is not that thing. And yet, for some reason, we are able to accept a picture of a pipe, as a pipe! What are we overlooking?

 

[FrogReaver]

This for me is the most confusing aspect of your argument. I think that the fiction is emerging from the game as played. There can indeed be branches, and we don't decide what those will look like unless they happen.

I think that is a generally true statement for all of us.

You say the orcs are acting based on fiction that hasn't been generated yet, and I say they are acting on the fiction that actually is generated. I'd love to bridge that gap in understanding.

Sure. It seems to me that the reason you are saying the fighter fictionally stumbles is because 1) we know he intends to move out of the room and 2) mechanically the orcs moved up 30ft and attacked him before his turn and 3) we chose a stumble as the explanation for how this was possible.

Since it takes all 3 of those things to generate the fiction that the fighter stumbles, then by necessity the DM's decision to have the orcs move up and attack was made before the fiction of the fighter stumbling. Thus the DM decision to have the orcs move up and attack isn't based on fiction but game mechanics.

The waffle/stumble/freeze is narrative that emerges from the initiative mechanic, as it happened to play out on this occasion.

It isn't the initiative mechanic alone that causes that. Nor does the initiative mechanic purport to ever be the cause of stumbling.

From Wikipedia


"The famous pipe. How people reproached me for it! And yet, could you stuff my pipe? No, it's just a representation, is it not? So if I had written on my picture "This is a pipe", I'd have been lying!"
— René Magritte

It is a nod to the case that a symbol representing something - say a miniature of a fighter, and a page of D&D character scores and features - is not that thing. And yet, for some reason, we are able to accept the pipe as a pipe! What are we overlooking?

I don't see any connection to that and this discussion.

 

[Maxperson]

A fighter walks through a 5' wide door into a room and pauses precisely 30 feet in. Behind an illusionary wall dividing the room are 30 magically frozen orcs, all of whom are precisely 60' from the door, who will unfreeze this very moment. The wall drops, the fighter and orcs see each other. Initiative is rolled. For any reason that suits us, the orcs sprint to the door first. There are only three squares adjacent to the door so only three orcs can reach them, the rest must extend into the room from the door, probably filling the squares between the fighter and the door.

Your fiction caused trouble for you because it relied on part of the future turning out how you decided in advance. In-world, Han shot first... the fighter did waffle. Alas, that is what the die roll told us. Even if I assume a standing start, I can if I am willing include in my emergent fiction any explanation - a momentary freeze, a stumble, the fighter was distracted, or whatever - that passes it off. I can worry about whether the fighter ought to have moved a few squares, or I can accept it as a fair - but not precise - representation, and suspend disbelief.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe." For me, that must always be borne in mind when interpreting the systems of symbols that we call games. The fighter is not a fighter. The squares are not locations in-world. There are no orcs.

Once again, it doesn't matter what fiction you choose. Maybe there were 90 orcs, 1 fighter and 49 now dead armed commoners out in the middle of an open field. 30 orcs are left and 1 fighter. Those 30 orcs can all move their entire movement before the fighter can lift a toe. Come up with literally ANY fiction you choose in which end up with 30 on one side and 1 the other with no surprise. Why? BECAUSE THE FICTION DOESN'T MATTER. You still end up with broken fiction due to the way the D&D combat mechanics work.

 

[clearstream]

Sure. It seems to me that the reason you are saying the fighter fictionally stumbles is because 1) we know he intends to move out of the room and 2) mechanically the orcs moved up 30ft and attacked him before his turn and 3) we chose a stumble as the explanation for how this was possible.

I would put it that we don't know what happens until it happens. We played to find out.

Since it takes all 3 of those things to generate the fiction that the fighter stumbles, then by necessity the DM's decision to have the orcs move up and attack was made before the fiction of the fighter stumbling. Thus the DM decision to have the orcs move up and attack isn't based on fiction but game mechanics.

So is your objection essentially to fiction emerging from game mechanics?

It isn't the initiative mechanic alone that causes that. Nor does the initiative mechanic purport to ever be the cause of stumbling.

The initiative mechanic represents it. The relationship is representative, not causal. There is no causality in fiction.

I don't see any connection to that and this discussion.

It suggests we should be mindful of what we are glossing over. Conscious that we are suspending disbelief. When I say "The bar you enter is dingy, but thronged." There is objectively no bar, only the subjective impression of a bar in your imagination, and probably a somewhat different bar in my imagination. Let's consider an ordinary D&D situation: the party walk into a bar, which the DM describes with the usual brevity. Every person at the table will now have a different bar in mind. Each bar will omit numerous details that real bars possess. However, the players will still be able to enjoy a fiction in common - by simply not minding about those differences.