D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Maxperson]

Sorry, I was quoting myself from the post to which Chaosmancer responded

DFC = Deep Fried Calamari. My new acronym for Cthulu and buddies.

I know this was used recently in another thread but:

Gotcha. If you haven't read The Dresden Files, I highly recommend it. If you have, Butcher does a great job in demonstrating the difference between demons and outsiders(Cthulu types). They are very different breeds of evil.

 

[Faolyn]

Demon Lords and Archdevils are unable to grant spells in 5e. Page 11 of the DMG lists divine ranks and not even a demigod is capable of granting spells. Asmodeus can grant spells as a god of indulgence, but not as an Archdevil of tyranny.

They don't grant spells like that of a cleric, but they do have warlocks, whom they imbue with magic. Warlocks don't have to prepare, research, or otherwise acquire spells (except for those with the book, when they come across rituals). The warlocks just know the magic, and some of it they can cast at will (via invocations), which is something that gods generally don't or can't let their clerics do. Can gods imbue their clerics with magic in the same way arch-whatevers imbue their warlocks? Who knows?

Also, take a look at the three types of quasi-deities--all of them were gods or were the offspring/direct creation of gods. None of them were mortals who ascended to godhood, even though that's a thing that happens in D&D. It also doesn't say that things that aren't gods--but as powerful as gods--can't grant spells.

Bane would lose that fight unless he was able to kill Asmodeus quickly and then appease the others somehow. He wouldn't bother, though. There's no benefit in going after the god of indulgence.

Maybe. We haven't seen their statblocks yet. But no, there's no reason for Bane to go after a god with a different portfolio, unless he's just greedy to increase his portfolio for some reason.

Of course, the other thing that separates gods from arch-whatevers is avatars. I seem to recall rules a few editions ago that indicated that the greater the god, the more avatars they can make. Can an arch-devil make any avatars? If he can't, then Asmodeus could possibly kill one of Bane's avatars, but he'd likely be actually injured in the process, whereas Bane could pop out another avatar soon, if not immediately (as that page in the DMG says, killing a greater god's avatar has no effect on the god itself). If arch-whatevers can make avatars, they are probably limited to a very small number of them--maybe one at a time--with a lengthy recharge time. Years, decades, even centuries between avatars, perhaps. At most, archdevil Asmodeus would be able to clone himself. And even if he has a thousand clones, Bane can still produce more avatars.

 

[generic]

They don't grant spells like that of a cleric, but they do have warlocks, whom they imbue with magic. Warlocks don't have to prepare, research, or otherwise acquire spells (except for those with the book, when they come across rituals). The warlocks just know the magic, and some of it they can cast at will (via invocations), which is something that gods generally don't or can't let their clerics do. Can gods imbue their clerics with magic in the same way arch-whatevers imbue their warlocks? Who knows?

Also, take a look at the three types of quasi-deities--all of them were gods or were the offspring/direct creation of gods. None of them were mortals who ascended to godhood, even though that's a thing that happens in D&D. It also doesn't say that things that aren't gods--but as powerful as gods--can't grant spells.


Maybe. We haven't seen their statblocks yet. But no, there's no reason for Bane to go after a god with a different portfolio, unless he's just greedy to increase his portfolio for some reason.

Of course, the other thing that separates gods from arch-whatevers is avatars. I seem to recall rules a few editions ago that indicated that the greater the god, the more avatars they can make. Can an arch-devil make any avatars? If he can't, then Asmodeus could possibly kill one of Bane's avatars, but he'd likely be actually injured in the process, whereas Bane could pop out another avatar soon, if not immediately (as that page in the DMG says, killing a greater god's avatar has no effect on the god itself). If arch-whatevers can make avatars, they are probably limited to a very small number of them--maybe one at a time--with a lengthy recharge time. Years, decades, even centuries between avatars, perhaps. At most, archdevil Asmodeus would be able to clone himself. And even if he has a thousand clones, Bane can still produce more avatars.

I view Warlocks as being rogue Wizards, they've been taught the advanced material by a mentor, but lack the studious habits befitting a real magician.

Not sure if that's the general reading of the text, but I think it can be argued that the abilities Warlocks are bestowed with are more a result of an accelerated apprenticeship.

 

[Maxperson]

They don't grant spells like that of a cleric, but they do have warlocks, whom they imbue with magic. Warlocks don't have to prepare, research, or otherwise acquire spells (except for those with the book, when they come across rituals). The warlocks just know the magic, and some of it they can cast at will (via invocations), which is something that gods generally don't or can't let their clerics do. Can gods imbue their clerics with magic in the same way arch-whatevers imbue their warlocks? Who knows?

Gotcha on the warlock thing. I didn't pick that up from what you said. Gods are capable of having warlocks as well, so while they don't imbue clerics with power like a warlock, someone who wasn't a faith based follower could bargain with the god or a highly placed underling and make a pact with the god.

Also, take a look at the three types of quasi-deities--all of them were gods or were the offspring/direct creation of gods. None of them were mortals who ascended to godhood, even though that's a thing that happens in D&D. It also doesn't say that things that aren't gods--but as powerful as gods--can't grant spells.

Mortals that ascend to godhood are usually demigods. Archdevils and demon lords are not as powerful as gods. They would be on par with the three categories listed that can't grant spells. Demon lords range in CR from 21-26, with most being 22-23. Titans are CR 23.

Maybe. We haven't seen their statblocks yet. But no, there's no reason for Bane to go after a god with a different portfolio, unless he's just greedy to increase his portfolio for some reason.

That's true. 5e might have changed things. Asmodeus was a lesser god and Bane a greater god, but who knows now.

Of course, the other thing that separates gods from arch-whatevers is avatars. I seem to recall rules a few editions ago that indicated that the greater the god, the more avatars they can make. Can an arch-devil make any avatars? If he can't, then Asmodeus could possibly kill one of Bane's avatars, but he'd likely be actually injured in the process, whereas Bane could pop out another avatar soon, if not immediately (as that page in the DMG says, killing a greater god's avatar has no effect on the god itself). If arch-whatevers can make avatars, they are probably limited to a very small number of them--maybe one at a time--with a lengthy recharge time. Years, decades, even centuries between avatars, perhaps. At most, archdevil Asmodeus would be able to clone himself. And even if he has a thousand clones, Bane can still produce more avatars.

Only lesser gods and higher have been able to create avatars in prior editions. Demigods and lower(and archdevils and demon lords were lower) could not manifest an avatar. The DMG on page 11 only mentions avatars being made by lesser and greater gods, but doesn't specifically exclude demigods.

 

[Kinematics]

Sorry, I was quoting myself from the post to which Chaosmancer responded

DFC = Deep Fried Calamari. My new acronym for Cthulu and buddies.

You might want to look up the more common usage for that acronym before jumping on it, because it tends to suggest things very different than Cthulhu and buddies.

--

Also, while not having read the entire thread, my take on 'evil' gods (and gods in general) is that their domain is more a function of what grants them power, rather than what they do. So a god of murder doesn't go around murdering people; rather, he gains power from his followers committing murder in his name. (Or for more abstract concepts, the worship involved, such as sailors praying for protection from the sea during a voyage.)

Thus, it's not that the world "needs" a god of murder, but rather that murder is otherwise an untapped power source that a proto-god could latch onto, and, given enough followers and murder, become powerful enough to be considered a proper god (grant divine magic and favors, etc). It's a proto-god finding an evolutionary niche and filling it.

Someone on the first page already mentioned that demons don't gain power from worship, but that gods do. A demon that embodies murder isn't filling that evolutionary niche, because it isn't drawing power from the worshippers of that concept. So it's not an overlap of duties, it's two entirely separate concepts that happen to look similar from the mortal view.

Also also, the god of murder may not like the demon of murder to go around murdering people (or getting its followers to murder people) because all of that is a waste of resources, from the god's point of view. All of that murder could have been used to power up the god, after all. There's also no particular requirement for gods to have any specific desires or goals. Maybe the god of murder likes to build empires because it's entertaining, and backstabbing fights for the throne happen to align with his domain. So what he struggles with or fights for varies based on your particular interpretation.

This also leads to a reframing of whether a god is "good" or "evil". The god just wants the worshipful action for its own gain. However murder is viewed as evil by most people, and thus the god is viewed as evil because it promotes those actions. However the god might view it more like the actions of a gamer playing a war sim. Sure, technically you caused all those deaths, but they just get respawned in a bit via the god of death, so who cares, really? This depends on how abstracted the god is from its followers.

 

[Maxperson]

You might want to look up the more common usage for that acronym before jumping on it, because it tends to suggest things very different than Cthulhu and buddies.

Meh. There are 89 acronyms for it, the vast majority of which are fine. Sorry, 90 of them now.

 

[Lanefan]

A person who "follows" Nerull, but does not actively go out and murder is not someone who is actually following Nerull. If that person isn't going to actually engage in what Nerull expects from his clerics, he's not going to get spells.

Note that there's a difference between a follower and a Cleric.

A Cleric would be expected to engage in the activites Nerull expects. A follower might very well cheer those activities on (even if doing so silently) without in fact actually doing any of it.

 

[Maxperson]

Note that there's a difference between a follower and a Cleric.

A Cleric would be expected to engage in the activites Nerull expects. A follower might very well cheer those activities on (even if doing so silently) without in fact actually doing any of it.

That's true. My response was in the context of clerics, so I conflated cleric and follower there.

 

[Lanefan]

Bane is a more powerful god that Asmodeus is. And Asmodeus can't bring his "infinite resources" to bear on a prime plane or it would have been overrun by him thousands of years ago.

No I haven't. I never once said or implies that he wasn't a god.

There are thousands of gods who are all as smart as he is and don't want him to win.

Just to get this straight, are you and @Chaosmancer simply arguing over Realms canon here?

I ask because if this is the case, those of us who don't use FR for our setting can safely skip these posts and not miss anything.

 

[Maxperson]

Just to get this straight, are you and @Chaosmancer simply arguing over Realms canon here?

I ask because if this is the case, those of us who don't use FR for our setting can safely skip these posts and not miss anything.

Yes and no. Part of it is Realms specific, and part is multiverse at large, but you can probably still skip them and not miss anything.