D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Doug McCrae]

This post consists of quotations from AD&D 2e and D&D 3e/3.5 on the subject of the source of spells for clerics who worship demon lords and archdevils. They mostly, with two exceptions, repeat the same idea – such clerics exist, they can cast spells, but the power source is really a god or an evil outer plane. They’re consistent with @Voadam’s quotation from 3e Book of Vile Darkness (2002) upthread.

"The Lords of the Nine", Dragon #223 (1995):

The Lords [archdevils] gains power from mortal worshipers, just as a god would, though he cannot grant spells. Still, the devotion of mortals is a powerful thing, and it's something Lords covet. It's said that that's the reason the Lords even bother to trifle with mortals at all.

The only problem is this: How do these cults retain worshipers if there's no evidence that they've got power? That's where the politics of expediency come in. Before establishing a priesthood on the Prime, the Lord usually has to perform a favor for one of the powers of Baator [gods who reside in the Nine Hells]. In return (and usually in return for some of the power gained from the ceremonies), the power sends along some of his rituals to the mortal priest.

D&D 3e Manual of the Planes (2001):

Asmodeus is at the very least an archdevil, but he could possess the power of a true deity.

D&D 3e Deities & Demigods (2002):

The default assumption of the D&D game is that, while powerful outsider and elemental lords exist, they are not gods, and they cannot grant spells to clerics the way deities do. Though they are powerful and often revered by those who share their alignment, they reach no higher than divine rank 0. The demon prince Yeenoghu is a classic example: He is revered by gnoll clerics, but the god Erythnul actually grants them their spells. Yeenoghu acts simply as a go-between, a patron of the gnolls and a loyal servant of Erythnul.

In an alternate cosmology, however, it may be important to allow these figures to grant spells. If evil clerics are to exist in a world dominated by a monotheistic religion with a good deity, they must have a source for their spells. In such a campaign, the demon princes and archdevils, as well as other elemental and outsider lords, may achieve divine rank 1 or higher, though they should not rise higher than demigod status (divine rank 5). Making them actual deities, however, means that the religion is not strictly monotheistic, since there are now multiple deities in the religion. If only one such evil deity exists, the religion is dualistic. If there are more than one, you have created a loose pantheon.

The alternative is to maintain these powerful creatures at divine rank 0 but give them the special ability to grant spells to their servants. If you want to limit this ability in some way, you can allow them to grant access to only a single domain, handicapping the demon-worshipers in a minor way when compared to clerics of the "true faith." This approach better maintains the feel of a monotheistic religion in the game.

D&D 3.5 Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss (2006):

Clerics who worship demon lords cast spells in the same way as other clerics do, but their Abyssal patrons do not directly grant them spells. Rather, the demon lord serves as a focus through which the cleric can access divine energy—his spells are in fact drawn from the chaos and evil of the Abyss itself.

 

[Voadam]

In N2 Tomb of the Lizard King (1982), the clerics allied with the lizard king Sakatha are "demon-worshiping." The Type I demon, Grzzlat, "was ordered by a cleric to carry a few spells up to this plane." I think that's a reference to this passage in AD&D 1e Deities & Demigods (1980): "Third, fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric's deity."

I2 Tomb of the Lizard King

That passage about divine servants is also in the 1e DMG.

 

[Faolyn]

Thank you for the lecture. Consider me properly chastened and contrite as you clearly know better than me. You are still trying to offer homebrew solutions to what we can do with the gods, when the initial discussion of trying to figure out what their role is is still ongoing.

Since there's no actual canon reasons, all we can do is homebrew solutions to them.

So the role of evil gods is to care about the material plane and not the Blood War? Question, what about the War between Gruumsh and Magbuliyet? Does that make them care less about the Material Plane because they are looking to expand their worshipers to get an advantage?

No, because their war involves supremacy between goblins and orcs, both of which are Material Plane creatures. Even if a lot of their fighting takes place on the outer planes in Acheron or whatever, the basis is the Material.

Not only do you seem to be approaching this from the other side, ie "what is the role of Demon Lords and Archdevils" but you have come to a conlcusion that is rather self-defeating. Their role is to fight the Blood War which cancels out their ability to focus fully on things not the Blood War.

I'd say it's less "cancels out their ability to focus on other things like the Material Plane" and more "they have no need to be interested in other things."

Take this as a given: gods either need or want prayer. Whether it's food for them, the divine equivalent of Likes, or something else entirely. To get prayer, they want living mortals to be their worshipers.

But arch-fiends don't need or want prayer. What they want is souls, which are food, a power source, and a currency all in one. Fiends don't need worshipers to get souls, because evil mortals who die go to the lower planes anyway, no matter who they worshiped in life. Now sure, a person worships an evil god, they're probably going to instead show up as a petitioner in that god's realm (although in my mind, an evil god would probably not accept the souls of worshipers who were evil but who failed to actually follow the god's portfolio--Bane wouldn't want a worshiper who spent his life murdering puppies for fun but who shied away from war). But imagine some dude who worshiped Tyr but went too heavy-handed and his "justice" turned into torturous revenge. Tyr would likely kick him out to the lower planes. Unless he becomes undead, his soul goes to the lower planes and becomes a larva. It then gets rounded up by a night hag or something and stuck with a bunch of other larva in a cattle yard, and then, eventually, sold to whatever entity decided to buy it--which could be a devil, demon, yugoloth, or anything else that has a use for damned souls.

Arch-fiends also get worshipers. This is a bonus because it both gives them a mortal agent who can increase the amount of evil in the world (thus ensuring more souls), and when the worshiper dies, they're likely to then show up in the fiend's domain--which means they manifest as a devil or demon. Even a lemure or nuppirubo is more useful than a larva in the archfiend's fight against the other archfiends, and some worshipers will end up as Type II or III fiends instead. But, these worshipers are not essential in the way they are for gods. They're just icing. Arch-fiends get the cake automatically, where gods have to work to get it.

But, if you take away the Blood War... you still have valid reasons for Archdevils and Demon Lords to exist. They don't require the Blood War, it is just an excuse to deal with the issues of how powerful both groups are. And it also has nothing to do with the role of Evil gods, because without the Blood War, the Demons and Devils are focused on the material plane and their people there, which is the exact same as the Evil Gods.

Maybe, maybe not. I have no idea what the arch-fiends did before the Blood War was invented for Planescape. But let's say that the Blood War was never invented. No Lawful fiends vs. Chaotic fiends. The arch-things would likely still be focused on the outer planes instead of the Material. They would be fighting other arch-fiends, if only for territory, resources, or to settle grudges. They'd just be more likely to be fighting other fiends of their own type. There would be probably more attacks on or by celestials. With the Blood War, angels are content to ignore demons and devils as long as they're killing each other and not other beings; without the Blood War, they'd have more work on their hands.

So this, combined with their lack of need for living worshipers, means that arch-fiends still don't have any reason to hit the Material Plane.

 

[Helldritch]

Okay, so what happens if you conquer a prime, and then start spreading to other primes simultaneously? It seems to me that would mean you might lose influence in a single prime if another power kicks you out of that Prime, but it says nothing about your personal power, or the ability you have if you stopped investing broadly and focused.

One of the origins of the Nine Hells is that they may be eight prime worlds taken over by Asmodeus and his forces. IF we consider this true then Asmodeus has at least 8 realms where he controls 51% of all of it. This would make him dramatically powerful. Again, more powerful than pretty much any evil god.




So contacting an individual on another plane and offering them power in exchange for doing you a favor would cost PP, correct?

That is creating a warlock, which Asmodeus does all the time. We can easily assume that if he is working in near infinite planes, that he is doing this a lot, and therefore would have a massive store of PP.

Again, I'm less concerned with the Primes, and more about the individuals outside of the primes, since we have decided that this must be a multiversal conversation

As I told you, not everything cost PP. But over extending is a possibility and this is exactly why Asmodeus is playing the various hellish lords against one an other.

 

[Lanefan]

Well, this requires some assumptions, which DnD has made.

1) Prime Planes are not infinite. They have limits.

Each one does, but IMO there's an infinite number of them which grows by one every time a DM starts a new campaign.

1a) Even if they are infinite, and therefore have infinite life-bearing worlds on them, the Demons and Devils can access those worlds as easily as the gods.

Access them, sure. Live on them? Not as likely.

Just like various mortals can access the Abyss or the Hells, but wouldn't want to live there.

2) Most Gods are limited to a single Prime, they are not as was put “multi-sphere” powers. Demon Lords and Archdevils are.

Ah. I've always seen it that most major deities are universal, and any local variants are just that: variants or aspects of a major one* tailored to suit that particular culture. This allows me to have as many different cultures and-or deities in play as I need but all underpinned by a universal system in which there's really only 21 deities; a system that I can port into any setting with trivial ease.

* - for example, take Bane. I've never used Bane as a deity of anything in my settings, and were he to show up there he'd just be an aspect of some other, bigger deity (probably Dispater in my system, or maybe Asmodeus).

3) In either case, If you have access to a near infinite number of primes, whether or not each Prime is itself nearly infinite, and you compare yourself to a being that has access to a set number of primes, then you have more claim then them.

4) If area claimed can be tied to power, then infinite infinities is more than infinity. Which I know, infinity is weird, but I don’t believe the Prime’s are actually infinite, since Spelljammer allows you to reach the edge of the prime.

Area claimed doesn't help your power much if you've few or no worshippers within that area.

 

[Lanefan]

I never bought the idea that gods are the same in multiple settings.

It's a stupid idea in my opinion.
Asmodeus and Bane cannot the same being in both places because they act different.

Sure they can.

If Asmodeus looks at a world and thinks "I'll fit in best here (and gain the most worshippers!) if I take on the persona of being a god of war" then that's what he'll do. He might look at another world and think "That Ares idiot has already cornered the war-god market here, but there's nobody covering sin and debauchery; and as that's likely to give me the most advantage (and worshippers!), that's what I'll be". Meanwhile Bane might do the exact opposite.

Same dude. Totally different focus, world by world.

 

[Lanefan]

As I told you, not everything cost PP. But over extending is a possibility and this is exactly why Asmodeus is playing the various hellish lords against one an other.

I assume you're not talking about platinum pieces, nor about what a puppy does on the carpet; so what the bleep does PP stand for here?

 

[Chaosmancer]

You can't keep going back and forth.

I've been very consistent.

Before the invention of warlock, there was only one class for gifted power. So all beings of high power created clerics because that's all their were.

After warlocks were added and made mainstream, there became more ways to grant power. Cleric creation was gated between the previous concept of divine rank. Warlocks and binders were not. The divine ranks of many beings were faded away as there was a new tool for them to have access to spellcasters. They could only make warlocks or binders unless they gained a divine rank or had access to a power with divine rank.

And Permeton showed that there were still clerics of these beings in 4e. Well after the warlock was not only created, but in the core game. They weren't common, but they existed.

Also, divine Rank doesn't really exist anymore except in the loosest terms, and as I pointed out, many of the Demon Lords and Archdevils qualify as Lesser Gods, because they can hear and answer prayers. That is explicitly Levistus's punishment in Mordenkainen's Tome, that he is forced to answer prayers of the desperate to give them escape from their fates. Since according to the DMG, only Lesser Gods or higher can do that, then even if Clerics are gated behind needing Divine Rank... these beings have acheived that. They have enough worshippers from their various cults to have made that transition.

I never bought the idea that gods are the same in multiple settings.

It's a stupid idea in my opinion.
Asmodeus and Bane cannot the same being in both places because they act different.

Ah, well, that seems to be the majority position though, which makes it difficult to discuss with you and Maxperson simultaneously.

Also, do you have an answer to how Sin can exist in DnD? You skipped that part, I mean, if Asmodeus is the God of Sin, then it must mean something right?

 

[generic]

I assume you're not talking about platinum pieces, nor about what a puppy does on the carpet; so what the bleep does PP stand for here?

Probably "power point", it gauges deity strength and stuff.

 

[Helldritch]

I assume you're not talking about platinum pieces, nor about what a puppy does on the carpet; so what the bleep does PP stand for here?

Power Points. It comes from the old immortal set (gold box) in which you were literally playing gods. It was offering quite an insight on how gods and pantheons were working/competing. Yes it was immortals but the gods in immortal basic were pretty much gods in every aspects but names.