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D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

Mirtek

Hero
I had some time to dig out Prince of Lies. Here's some quotes, all typos are on me

As he lay there, the bload soaking into his padded doublet he wore beneath his armor, Renaldo could tell that the arrow had broken three ribs, that it had buried itself in his heart And yet he lived, still his sould refused to abandon his pain-wracked mortal shell.

The truth of it was, Renaldo's soul had nowhere to go. The Realm of the Dead had no master. No lord ruled over the City of Strife. With Cyric's defeat, men and women all across Faerun found themselves beyond death'S cold grasp- For some this proved to be a blessing beyond compare. For most, it was a nightmare beyond belief.

It then goes on with some more samples for the later. A sick old merchant who wanted to end his life with poison and is killed over and over by it for hours and some poor sod strapped to the table of a drow torturer (who can't quite believe his good luck that his current toy is lasting so long)
 

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Voadam

Legend
Isn't it in that book that they say that gods can be treated one category higher on their homeplane?That would explain Iuz's priesthood able to get 6th level spells as Iuz's homepage is the prime....
I do not see that in there. On page 126 under Native Divine Abilities it lists extra stuff powers get on their native plane and increased spells for worshipers or being treated as one category higher is not on the list.
 

pemerton

Legend
Each cleric must have his or her own deity
As I quoted upthread, in the PHB it says that a cleric "is dedicated to a deity, or deities" (p 20) though later on (p 40) we are told that "the cleric might well be judged by his or her deity". I think there is some ambiguity over whether a cleric must have a single god. (As is the case, say, in 4e and is thus one of the points of contrast between clerics and invokers.)

I realise this is a bit orthogonal to the point of your post. But I think it reinforces that Gygax really was making some of this stuff up as he went along, and wasn't presenting anything as systematised as found in, say, 4e or even Planescape.

In Q1 the lesser god abilities were optional, yes. As in the DM had the option to EXCLUDE them.

"As a lesser goddess, Lolth has certain attributes common to all divine beings. The DM may choose not to use these in this module, since a properly-played Lolth will easily destroy most invaders."
I'm not sure what your point is. It seems clear to me that the treatment of these abilities as optional indicates that it was not thought that Lolth granting spells to her clerics depended upon her being treated as a lesser goddess in the DDG sense of that term.

That doesn't mean that they were granted spells, though. You could have a land of people that worship the great rock. It's just a rock that sits in the center of the capitol city and is attributed(falsely) with all kinds of miracles. Nor does it mean that they all worship devils. There could be some that also worship Hextor and those are the ones who are clerics. "A land of devil-worshippers." doesn't tell you much when it comes to whether fiends and gods are the same or close to the same.
Well, whoever wrote the Hierarch scenario for the City of GH thought they had clerics, of Asmodeus, who could use spells up to 7th level. So I'm obviously not the only person to have interpreted the Horned Society in the way that I always have!

I can't find this in the 1e MM
You mean you don't have it? I provided the quotes and references upthread. They're found on p 84:

The social structure of the sahuogin is based upon rule by a king who holds court in a vast undersea city deep beneath the waves. This overlord's domain is divided into 9 provinces, each ruled by a prince. Each of these nobles controls the small groups of sahuagin dwelling in his fief. This organization mirrors that of the planes of Hell, for the sahuagin are devil worshippers. . . .

[T]here is a 10% chance per 10 male sahuagin that there will be a cleric (evil) and 1-4 assistant priestesses, for the religious life of these creatures is dominated by the females. If a cleric is with the group in the lair, she will be of 5th to 8th level ability, and her lesser clerics will be 3rd or 4th level.​

Here we have clerics, and (religious) worshippers, of devils. It's pretty clear-cut.

Sahuagin date back to the Blackmoor supplement, but in that book they have MUs rather than clerics, and their origin is described thus:

it is said that the sea elves and mermen were created by the Great Gods of Neutrality and Law while the Gods of Chaos bent their will to create the Sahuagin. In every aspect the Evil ones sought to make the Sahuagin into the most evil of the evil and many agree that they succeeded . . .​

Blackmoor has no discussion of any religious life of the Sahuagin.

To the best of my knowledge Sekolah is original to DDG, ie some years later than the MM which introduces the religious and devil-worshipping elements.
 


Voadam

Legend
I had some time to dig out Prince of Lies. Here's some quotes, all typos are on me



It then goes on with some more samples for the later. A sick old merchant who wanted to end his life with poison and is killed over and over by it for hours and some poor sod strapped to the table of a drow torturer (who can't quite believe his good luck that his current toy is lasting so long)
Across Faerun is an interesting specification.

It generally corresponds to the limitations of the spheres of godly influence as delineated in 2e Faiths and Avatars.
Page 3:

1632848837574.png
 

Mirtek

Hero
As to the battle between Kelemvor and Cyric, it was a little longer struggle then I remembered. I am too lazy to type it all, but the gist remains that Cyric's mind was shattered and he wasn't really defending himself. E.g. Kelemvor tries to tackle him and Cyric thinks about avoiding him by turning into poisonous mist but half way through another fractured piece of his mind suggest a different defense and another one lastly decides he should not abandon his glorious form as described in the Cyrinishad. He's also having trouble focusing on the present, as his view is currently overlayed with scenes of his worshippers dying on the mortal coil and he has difficulty telling whether a shade is currently on Hades and attacking him as part of the revolt or just a scene taking place far away on Faerun.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
In Explorer's Guide to Wildmount, there is a list of "Lesser Idols" who grant have a list of suggested cleric domains and warlock pacts. For example, Desirat is described as the companion and mount of Asmodeus, and she offers the Light and Trickery domains and The Fiend and The Undying pacts. Desirat is likely not an archfiend (she's described as a "dark phoenix" (no, not that one)).

I should also point out that the Cult Fanatic in the MM is a 4th-level cleric, and the Diabolical Cults section of Mordenkainen says "Each description also includes a list of signature spells associated with the cult. If a cult member can cast spells, you can replace any of those spells with spells from that list, as long as the new spell is of the same level as the spell it replaces." Now admittedly, the description for the Cult Fanatic doesn't say that they get those spells from the arch-fiend they worship (because it's such a generic statblock it can be used for any sort of cultist), but I think it's strongly enough implied.

So, this is really another case of D&D not keeping canon straight even within a single edition. Pretty typical of it.
I don't consider setting specific instances to be proof of much. Settings change things from the core for that setting alone. Asmodeus is a god in the Forgotten Realms, but he might not be divine at all in another setting.

The Cult Fanatic also isn't necessarily a cleric. Bards can have cure spells, despite being arcane and not divine. It would make sense that the cultist spells are divine as a power source, but that doesn't mean that they are clerics or get their spells directly from the Archdevil they follow, rather than from belief or some other way.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I'm not sure what your point is. It seems clear to me that the treatment of these abilities as optional indicates that it was not thought that Lolth granting spells to her clerics depended upon her being treated as a lesser goddess in the DDG sense of that term.
So you think that having to opt OUT of her being a goddess means that she wasn't granting spells as a goddess as the default?
The social structure of the sahuogin is based upon rule by a king who holds court in a vast undersea city deep beneath the waves. This overlord's domain is divided into 9 provinces, each ruled by a prince. Each of these nobles controls the small groups of sahuagin dwelling in his fief. This organization mirrors that of the planes of Hell, for the sahuagin are devil worshippers. . . .
I did miss that, but then it also says that the Suhauagin are devil men, so...
To the best of my knowledge Sekolah is original to DDG, ie some years later than the MM which introduces the religious and devil-worshipping elements.
The 1e Deities & Demigods lists Sekolah as a lesser god that dwells in Hell and makes no mention of him being a devil. It also says clerics can only advance to 5th level, which contradicts the MM which says that they can go to 8th level.

1e is notorious for contradictions that speak more to the chaos of the time, than the intent of the game designers. The races that are devil worshippers and get clerical spells in 1e are with very few exceptions also the races who worship actual listed gods.
 


Faolyn

(she/her)
I don't consider setting specific instances to be proof of much. Settings change things from the core for that setting alone. Asmodeus is a god in the Forgotten Realms, but he might not be divine at all in another setting.

The Cult Fanatic also isn't necessarily a cleric. Bards can have cure spells, despite being arcane and not divine. It would make sense that the cultist spells are divine as a power source, but that doesn't mean that they are clerics or get their spells directly from the Archdevil they follow, rather than from belief or some other way.
The MM specifically states that Cult Fanatics are 4th-level spellcasters who use Wisdom and have cleric spells prepared. It's exactly the same wording as the Priest, who is also in the MM. By RAW, a Cult Fanatic is a spellcasting cleric. Also, the flavor text of the Cultist from the MM says this: "Cultists swear allegiance to dark powers such as elemental princes, demon lords, or archdevils." and that Cult Fanatics are their leaders.

So I think you're at least partially wrong here. The MM is pretty clearly indicating that spellcultists are getting their power from arch-things (maybe not every arch-thing, but some at least). Now, it could very well be that the arch-thing is merely channeling the power from something else into their cleric, and instead of

[Arch-Thing] --> [Cultist]

it's actually

[Magic Source] --> [Arch-Thing] --> [Cultist]

But it's almost the same thing. The Cult Fanatic is getting clerical spells via their arch-thing.

So again, the takeaway from this is that D&D doesn't have a consistent rule on this.
 

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