D&D 4E Ron Edwards on D&D 4e

[pemerton]

You may (or may not) be surprised to know that there are folks On This Very Forum who would argue that 4e is a Story Now RPG.

Yes. One of them started this thread.

 

[Ovinomancer]

So PBtA is an example of Forge influence, and directly of Edwards. It certainly seemed the best fit.

Its another branch of RPGs. It clearly influences a lot of designers, but is not part of the mainstream. Traditional gamey games like D&D, versions of D&D, and CoC obviously remain dominant.

I guess a game like Alien could be seen as drawing from the mainstream and a more narrativist approach. Though its my understanding that it really works in the simulationist sense.

But 4E is big G game. For better or worse, its all about the G.

Nope. It can be, but it can actually also flex very hard to the N. It very much doesn't do S. If we care about those designators, that is. Not sure I do.

 

[darjr]

One of the most influential RPG frameworks at present is PbtA. That was written by Vincent Baker. If you read the acknowledgements in the rulebook, you will see this (on p 287-88):

IMMEDIATE GAME INFLUENCES​

3:16, Gregor Hutton​

Ars Magica, Lion Rampant​

Bacchanal, Paul Czege​

The Burning Wheel, Luke Crane​

The Mountain Witch, Timothy Kleinert​

Mouse Guard, Luke Crane​

Primetime Adventures, Matt Wilson​

Shadow of Yesterday, Clinton R. Nixon​

Sorcerer; Sorcerer’s Soul; Sex & Sorcery, Ron Edwards​

Spione, Ron Edwards​

Talislanta, Bard Games​

Trollbabe, Ron Edwards​

XXXXtreme Street Luge, Ben Lehman​

​

Character moves are based on secrets in The Shadow of Yesterday, by Clinton R. Nixon. Highlighted stats work very​

much like keys in the same.​

​

Highlighted stats also follow fan mail in Primetime Adventures, by Matt Wilson.​

​

Hx is based on trust in The Mountain Witch, by Timothy Kleinart.​

​

Stakes questions are based on stakes in Trollbabe, by Ron Edwards.​

​

Threat countdowns are based on bangs in Sorcerer, by Ron Edwards.​

​

Holding creation (et al) is based on covenant creation in Ars Magica (2nd Edition), by Lion Rampant.​

​

The character sex moves were inspired by Sex & Sorcerer, by Ron Edwards.​

​

The character playbooks were inspired by XXXXtreme Street Luge, by Ben Lehman.​

​

“Tell them the possible consequences and ask” and “offer an opportunity, with or without a cost” are based partly on “Taxi Service on Al Amarja” by Jonathan Tweet.​

​

The entire game design follows from “Narrativism: Story Now” by Ron Edwards.​

I think the Forge has been extremely influential in RPG design.

Ron Edwards is mentioned quite a lot. But certainly you know there is a person from the forge that had a HUGE influence on a game MANY times larger than all the PbTA games put together. In fact he was cited as one of the designers after the big three. And then he went to be a central designer on a game much bigger than even that. And he got there by designing games at least as big of a deal as any pbta game, maybe all of them put together, until that latest kickstarter anyway.

Some one that Ron Edwards talked to a lot about game design.

but I realize my take might be to subtle to really live.

 

[darjr]

Wow, I’m sorry I started this whole derail. I honestly just wanted to double-check that Ron Edwards was who I thought he was, I had no intention of making a big stink about stuff he’s said that I found distasteful, let alone bring Justin Alexander into the discussion. Though on that subject, I’ll have to have a look back at the dissociative mechanics essay. I read it when it first came out (not knowing at the time who Justin Alexander was) and hated it, but that was the height of the edition war and I was poised defensively at the time. I might at least find some value in it now with a cooler head and the benefit of hindsight, even if I don’t expect I’ll agree with him.

Anyway, I’ll probably step out of this thread. I don’t think I’ll have anything constructive to contribute. Sorry again for setting the discussion down this path.

EDIT: Nope, the article is just as terrible as I remember. It contains one interesting observation about how some game mechanics require the player to make decisions separately from their character’s decision-making process, and then the rest is a poorly-disguised anti-4e tirade. That’s disappointing.

Eh not your fault. Simple question, simple answer, and I think the rest of us ran with it and I keep getting sucked in.

 

[pemerton]

Ron Edwards is mentioned quite a lot. But certainly you know there is a person from the forge that had a HUGE influence on a game MANY times larger than all the PbTA games put together. In fact he was cited as one of the designers after the big three. And then he went to be a central designer on a game much bigger than even that. And he got there by designing games at least as big of a deal as any pbta game, maybe all of them put together, until that latest kickstarter anyway.

Some one that Ron Edwards talked to a lot about game design.

but I realize my take might be to subtle to really live.

Are you talking about Mearls?

He's not the only WotC designer who, back in the day, suggested that people wanting to break through into RPG design should hang out at The Forge. But my experience has always been that mentioning that on these boards is a recipe for a fight, so I tend not to do it.

 

[darjr]

Are you talking about Mearls?

He's not the only WotC designer who, back in the day, suggested that people wanting to break through into RPG design should hang out at The Forge. But my experience has always been that mentioning that on these boards is a recipe for a fight, so I tend not to do it.

yea. And there were others as you say. Sorry about the fights. That sucks.

 

[darjr]

Oh and Ed Healy. I keep forgetting about his input. His star never seems to shine though, but behind the scenes he's kinda talked to everyone.

 

[Malmuria]

There’s a lot I like about 4E. There’s a lot to like about the Alexandrian. It’s not all or nothing. You can like certain parts of a game but not others and you can agree with some if what he says and disagree with him on other things. There’s no reason to dismiss everything he ever says about anything. That’s a rather childish approach. Not saying you’re advocating that at all.

personally I enjoy his blog a lot and have never played 4e

 

[overgeeked]

A bit of railroading to keep the game fun or mostly railroading to deny the players any meaningful choices?

Railroading is the removal of meaningful choices. Railroading is the opposite of fun. It precludes fun.

It seems like there's a difference and a bit of space in between...

Not really.

It's almost like someone started a thread on it at one point recently....

Yeah, I did.

 

[Malmuria]

Yes. One of them started this thread.

What did you find interesting about the interview with Edwards?