D&D 5E On fairies and flying

[Paul Farquhar]

What I am saying is that for an inexperienced GM (AKA someone who might buy ToA and run it as-is) an all flying party could be difficult to accommodate. Because of this I think the stance that flying PCs might be overpowered is a fair one for a GM to make.

If the inexperienced DM bans flying characters they will never learn how to accommodate them. Adapting the adventure to suit the players is a key skill any DM needs to learn.

1. The empty map has very discrete rules for what speed a party moves in the jungle, with a game mechanic tied to if they go fast, normal, and slow. Then it goes on to say flying characters move 4 times faster in an 8 hour day than a "normal" speed party. A group could be starting the hex crawl with the PCs moving 4 times faster overland than the adventure expects them to.

So, they miss most of the hex crawl. Doesn't matter, if the group creates an all-flying party (with Rope Trick so they don't have to land to rest) it's probably because they aren't interested in hex-crawling and want to get straight on with finding a cure for the Death Curse. Of course, a flying party is going to be conspicuous, and attract the attention of powerful beings known to be in the area. Such as a certain dragon.

2. You have a set piece encounter with the PCs defending a fort from rampaging undead dinosaurs. There are zero danger stakes for them if they can just "jump pack" away from dinosaurs and zombies when the going gets tough.

The PCs don't need to care about the fort at all. They might choose to let the conquistadores get eaten by undead dinosaurs. Of course, the person reanimating the dinosaurs might decide to create some undead quezalcoatlus if he hears about flying conquistadors.

3. There is an encounter about crossing a dangerous bridge with a golem guarding the other side of the PCs don't do it right. Or they just bypass the whole thing.

There are dozens of ways a party can bypass the juggernaut. It's almost certainly going to be a trivial encounter. And it doesn't matter.

4. There is a location with a tricky maze with a prize in the center revealed when the PCs have solved it. Or they just fly by and see what it is without the entire maze portion of the location.

5. There are multiple other locations where height and access from ground level are major problems walking PCs have to solve.

These are all going to be trivial. Remember the party is going to be at least mid-level by the time the get to these. The are going to have access to flying, familiars, arcane eye, speak with animals, clairvoyance, augury, teleportation etc etc. You planning on banning all of those?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

If the inexperienced DM bans flying characters they will never learn how to accommodate them. Adapting the adventure to suit the players is a key skill any DM needs to learn.

So, they miss most of the hex crawl. Doesn't matter, if the group creates an all-flying party (with Rope Trick so they don't have to land to rest) it's probably because they aren't interested in hex-crawling and want to get straight on with finding a cure for the Death Curse. Of course, a flying party is going to be conspicuous, and attract the attention of powerful beings known to be in the area. Such as a certain dragon.

The PCs don't need to care about the fort at all. They might choose to let the conquistadores get eaten by undead dinosaurs. Of course, the person reanimating the dinosaurs might decide to create some undead quezalcoatlus if he hears about flying conquistadors.

There are dozens of ways a party can bypass the juggernaut. It's almost certainly going to be a trivial encounter. And it doesn't matter.

These are all going to be trivial. Remember the party is going to be at least mid-level by the time the get to these. The are going to have access to flying, familiars, arcane eye, speak with animals, clairvoyance, augury, teleportation etc etc. You planning on banning all of those?

My thoughts are that you seem to have little empathy for how frustrating a new GM would find all those things that you brush off as "so what".

 

[Paul Farquhar]

My thoughts are that you seem to have little empathy for how frustrating a new GM would find all those things that you brush off as "so what".

A new DM needs to learn that it's the players who decide how to tackle challenges, not the DM. Once bad habits are acquired they are very difficult to loose.

Sure, it can be difficult, but learning to ban any ability that lets the party breeze through a challenge is not a solution.

Learning that things aren't going to go by the book, and to just let whatever happens happen is a valuable lesson.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

A 30' move swashbuckler can stay 45' away from their target and still swoop/run-by attack

And they can do it without flying.

In combat, "moves faster than" is just as good as "can fly".

 

[Cadence]

If the inexperienced DM bans flying characters they will never learn how to accommodate them. Adapting the adventure to suit the players is a key skill any DM needs to learn.

So, they miss most of the hex crawl. Doesn't matter, if the group creates an all-flying party (with Rope Trick so they don't have to land to rest) it's probably because they aren't interested in hex-crawling and want to get straight on with finding a cure for the Death Curse. Of course, a flying party is going to be conspicuous, and attract the attention of powerful beings known to be in the area. Such as a certain dragon.

The PCs don't need to care about the fort at all. They might choose to let the conquistadores get eaten by undead dinosaurs. Of course, the person reanimating the dinosaurs might decide to create some undead quezalcoatlus if he hears about flying conquistadors.

There are dozens of ways a party can bypass the juggernaut. It's almost certainly going to be a trivial encounter. And it doesn't matter.

So would you be fine with a PC race that had flying 180', blindsight, and invisibility too? I mean you make it sound like being able to bypass encounters and difficulties sometimes is a feature not a bug, and that only inexperienced or railroady DMs have trouble adapting to things (in spite of others in here disagreeing). Assuming you're not just picking your personal line and acting like people who choose a somewhat different line are incompetent.

Or is it that you just think flying is a ludicrously low bar to have things fall apart? If so, where is your bar?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Or is it that you just think flying is a ludicrously low bar to have things fall apart?

Pretty much this.

If so, where is your bar?

Dunno, I have never encountered anything in the WotC rules that approached it.

Edit: Giving it a bit of thought, Twilight cleric is the closest to gamebreaking thing I have experienced in official WotC content. Although it had paled compared to the damage the monsters where giving out by around level 14.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

And they can do it without flying.

In combat, "moves faster than" is just as good as "can fly".

Adding movement in the 3rd dimension let's the swashbuckler ignore defensive lines, difficult terrain, cover, and any other usual tactics a side can employ to keep the squishy VIPs safe.

Being airborne also prevents a lot of tactics a side might employ to try to defend against your mobile hit an run attacks like swarming your line to get to you, spells making difficult terrain, or even special movents like burrowing, jumping, phasing, etc.

Yes, the enemy can still target you with ranged attacks or readied actions, but they can do so even if you aren't flying so that isnt a new negative that balances the sheer amount of content you can just ignore.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

Not necessarily. A DM might not white-list particular races for thematic reasons as I've stated.

Sorry for being unclear, I rephrase: It is ok for a DM to not white-list races for thematic reasons, and that still makes them a good DM in your eyes. But its not ok for a DM to not white-list races with lvl 1 flying because the DMs view is that they takes away from the low tier exploration and combat experience - then it's just the DM that suck at making challenges?

I'm just curious about exactly what choices makes the DM suck at making challenges, in regard to lvl 1 flying races.

 

[iserith]

Sorry for being unclear, I rephrase: It is ok for a DM to not white-list races for thematic reasons, and that still makes them a good DM in your eyes. But its not ok for a DM to not white-list races with lvl 1 flying because the DMs view is that they takes away from the low tier exploration and combat experience - then it's just the DM that suck at making challenges?

I'm just curious about exactly what choices makes the DM suck at making challenges, in regard to lvl 1 flying races.

My position is that if flying PCs are being banned because the DM's challenges are being constantly thwarted by flying PCs, then it's worth examining the way the DM designs and presents challenges in my view. Just because someone doesn't have certain skills doesn't mean they "suck." Nobody's born being able to design robust challenges. It's something to work at and we all have varying skill levels.

 

[Scott Christian]

I personally like the thought of a 5th level, wood elf, flying barbarian that has taken the totem of the eagle and the mobile feat. 55' of movement, dash as a bonus action, no opportunity attacks. Swoop in 45', attack, bonus action to swoop out 65'. Watch as the creature you are attacking can never take an op attack.